Being intentional to create your legal career in Japan with Olivia Nomura
A full transcript follows.
What do you do when you have two competing loves, such as Japanese language and law? Olivia Nomura didn’t settle for one, she went for both. In this episode, Olivia shares how she was able to become a Japanese speaking foreign lawyer working in Tokyo for a big international firm, who now manages exciting multi-jurisdictional M&A deals. Oliva shows us how she perseveres in the short term for her long term goals and finds innovative ways around obstacles that pop up along the way.
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In this episode you’ll hear:
How Olivia was able to combine a love of Japanese language with her legal studies to succeed in both
How applying for an administration position in a leading firm, led her to be offered an interview for an associate position there
What happened when Olivia was headhunted for opportunities in Japan and how Olivia took control of the process
How Olivia is making the most of her maternity leave and also keeping her head in the game
Her favourite podcasts, books and other fun facts
About Olivia
Olivia Nomura was born and raised in Auckland, New Zealand. She developed an interest in Japan at an early age, and started studying Japanese at age 12. Olivia graduated from The University of Auckland, with a Bachelor’s degree in Law and Arts, majoring in Japanese and Political Science.
In July 2011, Olivia moved to Japan to continue her Japanese studies. During this time, she worked as an ALT teaching English to Japanese junior high school students on the JET Programme. After three years, having attained the Japanese Language Proficiency Test (JLPT) Level 2 Qualification, Olivia returned to New Zealand to complete her legal studies. She worked as a legal secretary for a few months while searching for a position as a corporate lawyer. In July 2015, she was admitted as a Barrister and Solicitor of the High Court of New Zealand and landed her first role as a Corporate/M&A lawyer at Chapman Tripp – New Zealand’s largest commercial law firm with around 60 partners and 200 legal staff.
At the end of 2016, Olivia was headhunted to interview for a Corporate/M&A role at an international law firm in Tokyo. She jumped at the opportunity and interviewed at several firms before finally accepting a role as an associate in Baker McKenzie’s corporate practice group. Olivia then joined Nick Wall and Tokutaka Ito in Allen & Overy’s Tokyo office in April 2020 – right at the start of the Covid-19 pandemic, so has worked from home for the majority of her two years with the firm.
Over the past 7 years working as an M&A lawyer in both New Zealand and Japan, Olivia has gained experience across a range of commercial transactions, and in particular, managing multi-jurisdictional M&A deals. A few recent highlights include: flying to New York to negotiate a USD 750 million deal in a competitive auction process; acting on cross-border deals involving iconic fashion brands; coordinating due diligence for a pharmaceutical deal spanning 5 jurisdictions; and collaborating with A&O’s US office on a SPAC deal and subsequent NASDAQ listing with over 120 stakeholders located in 6 different time zones on the closing Zoom calls.
Connect with Olivia
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/olivia-nomura/
Links
Craft Gin Bar Sicx: https://www.fec-inc.jp/
To be fair by Rosemary Riddell https://www.amazon.co.jp/Be-Fair-Confessions-District-Court/dp/1990003168
Hidden Brain Podcast: https://www.npr.org/series/423302056/hidden-brain
Lumio lamp: https://www.hellolumio.com/
Connect with Catherine
Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148
Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer
Transcript
Catherine: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Episode Two in Season Three of Lawyer on Air. I'm the host of the show, Catherine O'Connell. Today I am joined by Olivia Nomura, who is an associate at Allen and Overy in Tokyo. A&O is one of the first international law firms to have established an office in Tokyo back in 1988.
For over 30 years, the A&O Tokyo office has provided comprehensive legal services to a wide range of corporate clients, both domestic and international. The Tokyo practice specializes in three major areas; corporate and M&A, projects, energy, natural resources and infrastructure, and banking and finance. Olivia's law practice is serving clients in the corporate and M&A team with cross border deals.
Olivia has been working for the past seven years as an M&A lawyer in both New Zealand and in Japan. She has gained experience across a range of commercial transactions. And in particular, she has been managing multi-jurisdictional M&A deals. Recent work saw her working with A&O’s US office on a special purpose acquisition company deal and subsequent NASDAQ listing. And that deal had over 120 stakeholders, and the closing took place on zoom calls over six different time zones.
Well, as you have guessed I'm sure from the mention of New Zealand there, Olivia and I do indeed, both hail from the beautiful country of New Zealand. Olivia was born and raised in Auckland, and she tells me that she developed an interest in Japan early on, studying Japanese language at the age of twelve.
When Olivia was just 16 years old, she came to Japan on a three month Japanese language exchange to Fukuoka Girls High School in Japan. Then during her early high school years, Olivia had a strong sense of justice and that prompted her to pursue a legal career. And so it was that in 2006, Olivia actually left high school a year early because she was granted discretionary entrance to the University of Auckland.
And there she studied her bachelor's degree in law and arts, majoring in Japanese and political science. Well, while others took off time during the university holidays, Olivia instead got involved in various law related activities, including interning at a political think tank, and assisting with discovery in a litigation case, and even organizing a law conference for around 200 university students.
And that conference was called Just Law Minds Wide Open. In July, 2011 Olivia moved to Japan to continue her Japanese studies, and like many people have done, she worked as an assistant language teacher, teaching English to Japanese junior high school students on the JET program. After three years doing that, and also having attained level two in the Japanese language proficiency test, Olivia then decided it was time to move back to New Zealand and pursue her law career.
After completing the legal professional studies course, which we in New Zealand affectionately call profs, Olivia worked as a legal secretary for a few months while she was searching for a position as a corporate lawyer. In July, 2015, she was admitted as a barrister and solicitor of the high court of New Zealand and landed her first role as a corporate and M&A lawyer at Chapman Tripp, which is New Zealand's largest commercial law firm with around 60 partners and 200 legal staff.
Well, as I've said before on previous podcasts, once you have Japan in your blood, it is very hard to shrug off. And most people have a yearning to come back here. And Olivia was really no different. She had always hoped to practice law in Japan someday, but she knew she needed at least two years law experience in her home jurisdiction of New Zealand in order to qualify as a foreign registered lawyer in Japan or colloquially as we call it here “gaiben”.
In the end of 2016, Olivia was head hunted to interview for a corporate M&A role at international law firms in Tokyo. And she jumped on that opportunity and interviewed at several firms before finally accepting a role as an associate in Baker McKenzie's corporate practice group in Tokyo. In October 2017, having achieved the goal of gaining her two years home jurisdiction experience, Olivia and her husband packed up their lives in New Zealand and moved over to Tokyo.
Olivia worked at Baker McKenzie for two and a half years before being headhunted again, to work for corporate partners, Nick Wall and Tokutaka Ito in Allen & Overy’s Tokyo office. Olivia joined A&O in April, 2020. And yes, that date is familiar to all of us because it was right at the beginning of that pandemic.
So Olivia, like all of us, has worked from home for the majority of her last two years with the firm. She's also just taken leave to have a child. And I hope to hear some more about how Olivia is managing to balance this new stage of her life and work. Well, as I'm sure you can tell from that massive introduction, Olivia is indeed a lawyer extraordinaire, and I'm very pleased to bring Olivia Nomura to you today as my guest. Olivia, welcome to the show.
Olivia: Thank you Catherine for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Catherine: Well, we're going to talk today about your career path, how you've navigated your early days to qualify to work in Japan, your career so far in New Zealand and Japan and how you're balancing your life and work. And I'd really love you at times during our conversation to provide any tips and ideas you can for that next generation of associates who are coming up the ranks after you.
How does that sound?
Olivia: That sounds wonderful.
Catherine: Great. Well, today we are online. In fact, we are talking on a Sunday here today, which is, in order to make sure that we can get you out of your working week or your time away from the office at the moment while you're doing your maternity leave. And so, in fact, I hope we can catch up again in person soon, Olivia, but if we were meeting up in person, where would that be?
Do you have a favorite wine bar or cafe in Tokyo that you love to go to and what would be your choice off the menu?
Olivia: Sure. Well, I love a good New Zealand Sav, but I'm also a quiet G and T fan. So if we were meeting in person, Catherine, there's a great craft gin bar called six, S I C X, in Nakameguro where I used to live. It has a great selection of craft gins from around the world. so that's where I'd love to take you.
Catherine: Ooh, I have not been there. And I've heard, there's just so much about craft gin at the moment, that it's so popular. I would love to go with you there. Thank you so much. Let's do it. And I was also trying to recall Olivia, when we first met. And I'm pretty sure it was when we were at Amazon Japan's offices in Meguro, back in April 2018.
And now you say you lived in Nakameguro, I'll have to pause there. There is a call coming in.
And this call is from the Japanese monitoring office at the government monitoring my position as I've just come back from time in New Zealand. And I'm in quarantine in Japan. And so my presence is being recorded another 12 or 11 seconds to go.
Olivia: What do you do? I'm not sure someone watches you talking to them.
Catherine: I am not sure, but they will be interested to hear what I'm saying. It's about time to close off now, that's it. Well, that was interesting to have that experience during our recording. because as I just said, I have come back from New Zealand and the Japanese government are looking after us by checking our presence and making sure we're at home.
And I know you had that recently with your parents when they were visiting you, recording their presence every day to make sure we are actually at home abiding by the rules, as you would expect lawyers and families of lawyers would do.
So going back to where we were, I was remembering that we were at Amazon offices together because it was a Woman in Law, Japan event. And I had only just set up my law practice and I think it was a panel of solo practitioners and Angela Krantz, our first Lawyer on Air guest was the moderator. And maybe it was Rika Beppu who introduced you and me. Is that right?
Olivia: I think it might've been, yes Catherine.
Catherine: Wow. Okay. And so a few times after that, I think we've seen each other at law events or online, but with this pandemic, we've not actually seen each other. And so seeing you today, when we logged on to zoom, it was really the first time in forever. So it's been so crazy, hasn't it?
Olivia: Oh, it has Catherine. But hopefully we will be able to get together in the not too distant future.
Catherine: I hope so. Maybe at SICX gin bar. And I remember too, as I just said, I've been coming back from New Zealand. So when were you last in New Zealand?
Olivia: I would have been in New Zealand just over two years ago when we went back for Christmas to see my family.
Catherine: Okay. And so you haven't been back for two years. What do you miss, obviously, apart from your family and friends?
Olivia: I probably miss being able to go for walks out where I used to live in Epsom. Up this mountain named one tree hill. I really miss that.
Catherine: Yeah, I can tell that. And certainly being able to freely walk around in New Zealand, Omicron obviously is increasing a little bit there right now. But those walks and summer days are ones that we do miss, and I hope you can get back to that in this next coming year. So thanks for sharing that.
I wanted to go back then to your early days when you were studying Japanese, but right back before that, can you remember when you were a child, what you wanted to be when you grew up? You know, that big question that we often get asked. What do you remember about those times about what you wanted to do in your future?
Olivia: During primary school, I think I recall wanting to be a nurse. But as I got older, I realized that I didn't like blood Catherine. So I ruled out that career pretty quickly.
Catherine: You're like me. I cannot stand the sight of blood. I would fall over. Yeah. Well, where did that desire then for Japanese study come from, because you said you thought about it from age 12. What triggered that?
Olivia: It's hard to say sort of a hundred percent. But we had Japanese homestay students stay with us for a number of years from when I was about seven years old and they used to bring the omiyage, great, really fun souvenirs. And as a child, I thought that was a lot of fun. But of course there was that language barrier there to some extent.
So I think that really prompted me to learn Japanese so that I could communicate with them, as I could see that there was something really interesting and different about the culture that drew me to it.
Catherine: We had homestays as well, but it was after I started studying Japanese. So was there something already there in your family where they had that attraction to Japan or did it just come up through the school as an offering?
Olivia: Studying Japanese itself was offered at my intermediate school. So that's when I started studying at 12 years old. I studied that and I actually also studied German. And I studied both those languages right through high school, into my first year at university. But as you know, as I started studying law, studying two languages was just a bit much to keep going.
So I just continued with the Japanese.
Catherine: Right. And then, so that's what led you to then when you were 16, come to Japan for that stint for three months at Fukuoka Girls High School.
Olivia: That's right. Yes.
Catherine: Oh, so what surprised you then about Japan or the language then, like different to the textbooks? Because I know for me, when I came to Japan, it was certainly a little bit different from what I'd read in textbooks.
How about you?
Olivia: Obviously as you know, being a New Zealander, I think Japan is just so different from New Zealand. It looks different, it smells different, it tastes different. And I think for me that was just really intriguing and I think I always love a challenge and I think there was always a challenge in both the culture and the language to want to know more and want to learn more.
Catherine: Right. What do you remember about that three months with the school? What surprised you about Japanese schools or the Japanese students that you met there?
Olivia: What surprised me the most on day one was how many pairs of shoes I needed, Catherine. I think I had at least three or four, sort of indoor and outdoor shoes for sports and a different pair to come to school. And I remember being quite overwhelmed, and wanting to make sure I got it all right. And not offend anyone.
Catherine: That's right. And then there's the other pair of shoes, right? Going into the bathroom, which is another story. Right? Wow. Okay. And so you've really been so immersed in Japanese language. And I also see from your profile on LinkedIn that you in 2020, I think it was, also invested in more Japanese language study, but also with an overlay of law, because you did a legal translation course at temple university in Japan.
Olivia: That's right. Yes.
Catherine: What enticed you to do that additional study with the law as well?
Olivia: I've always really enjoyed interpreting for friends and family when they come over to Japan. And I thought it would be a great string to add to my bow, as often with meetings and clients in my role, there'll be someone in the room, or in our team that doesn't speak Japanese or English.
So I thought that that would be a great skill to have. So I started with that translation course and I do plan to do the interpretation course that they run at some point in the future.
Catherine: Right. So the translation course is written. Is that right? And then the interpretation is verbal.
Olivia: Correct.
Catherine: Oh, do you think it's really important for lawyers to have Japanese language and understanding to work in Japan? Or is it not necessary? What do you think?
Olivia: Well personally I think it is necessary, to have some interest in Japanese culture and in the people here, not only to live life here, and enjoy doing that. And you might know this too, Catherine, that culture is so embedded in the language, and I think knowing the language then just helps communication so much with clients, both internally and externally. It makes this life, I think, a whole lot more fun, cause you just can understand each other and that's wonderful.
Catherine: That's right. Isn't it? And it's even very subtle things such as, you know, if you're on a zoom call and saying goodbye at the end, you don't just click off immediately, right? You wait for that usual two or three or four seconds that you would normally do on a phone call before you actually cut the call.
Which always surprises me because at least zoom has a little bit of timing between ending the call and actually ending it. But some of those calls like teams, they immediately end and it always feels so rude, especially with Japanese clients to cut off immediately. So knowing even things like that about the custom, is really important, right?
When we're on calls et cetera, right now, because we're online all the time.
Olivia: I agree.
Catherine: Well, thanks for those insights. It's really interesting to hear that you are positive about having Japanese language. Some of our guests have said, it's not necessary. There's no demerits, but certainly I'm aligned with you in knowing that I would not be practicing here if I didn't have language because of that overlay into culture as well.
Well, that's really interesting. So let's go back then to your study of law, because it seems to me, you did your law study, you graduated, but you didn't go straight to qualify as a barrister and solicitor in New Zealand, but moved to Japan for the jet teaching role. Is that right?
Olivia: That's right. Yeah. I thought it was really important to continue my Japanese language studies at the time. Because I had already taken two years out to finish off my law degree after the Japanese part of my degree ended. And so I didn't want to forget all that I'd learned. And so, yeah, that's what took me to go in the jet program for those three years.
Catherine: Right. So why is Japanese then so important to you, in that you wanted to do the jet role?
Olivia: With language, it's easy to forget if you're not using your language skills. And I spent so much time and energy learning the language that I would hate to have forgotten it. And yeah, I suppose maybe there was something that deep down I always knew that I maybe would have worked in Japan one day.
Catherine: Right. Okay. And so consolidating on it then when it's still quite fresh was important, but also was it to get another experience before getting into that mechanism or the cogs of the law firm and doing that kind of work? Was there a bit of that overseas experience thing coming in there as well?
Olivia: I don't think so. I never really desired to go on an OE per se. I never considered going anywhere else other than Japan. So for me, it was quite intentional choice to do that, to continue my language studies. And I wanted to do that, like I said, firstly, so that I didn't lose those language skills, but I think secondly, so once I got into law, I think it'd be really easy to sort of stay on that path and it would be then be really difficult to go back to Japan, to pursue language.
So I think that's why I did it around that way.
Catherine: Right. Yeah, well done. I mean, for me too, I did Japanese then law, but my first real induction with Japanese was doing tour guiding for a couple of years and really consolidating on it. So I'm really hearing you there on that, that it is important, not just to do a fleeting visit on the language, but to actually do a deep dive.
And I really love how you've done that and it certainly served you well. So after that three years on your second stint in Japan, you did decide to come back to New Zealand and do your law career and actually qualify as a lawyer. So the motivation then to come back did it come through while you're in Japan for three years, or is it something that you were being pulled back by people who said it's time for you to come back?
Was it really within you that you thought about it, that it was time to come?
Olivia: Yes. I always wanted to pursue law. It was never if but when. And I felt that if I'd stayed any longer in Japan, Catherine, then it would have been really difficult to come back, to pursue law. So that's what drew me to come back to New Zealand to pursue that at that time.
Catherine: And you'd said in your high school years, you had a strong sense of justice. So is there a connection there to returning from Japan to New Zealand to continue that pathway on justice? What's that strong sense of justice coming from?
Olivia: That's a great question. I'm not sure where that comes from, I think it's just always been inately in me. I've always had a really strong sense of right and wrong and would always be picking fights with my younger brother, and wanting to win. So I think that's what initially drew me to law.
and I think I always also had an interest in politics as well, as I saw that as a tool to change things, and to bring about positive change. That's where that initial desire to study law came from. But I think over time that really developed while I was at university and I soon realized that it wasn't important just to do something that I felt passionate about, but actually something that I was good at.
So I think that desire that initially drew me to the law evolved as it were, and I, through my legal studies, figured out that I actually was better at corporate law, than I was at subjects like family law or international law, which initially I thought I would be more interested in.
So that was quite interesting to experience that.
Catherine: Yeah. Well, as I mentioned at the beginning, one thing that stuck out for me was you organizing that law conference, the conference just law mind's wide open, and I'd never really heard of anyone organizing a conference like that while they were still a student. I'm really curious about that, why you wanted to do that, your motivation, and do you think something like that is really important to have on a CV?
Or was it more than just being on your CV? Tell us a bit more about that experience.
Olivia: Sure it definitely wasn't about being on my CV. It actually came as an idea from a friend who was a few years older than me, and she'd already been practicing in the law for a few years. And a few of us friends got together, some practicing law, some still at university, and we decided that we wanted to run this conference, to introduce to New Zealand law students, some different potential career paths.
As often at university you have the big law firms come in and do the clerkships. And often that's the only career path presented as being an option. So we thought it would be great to run this conference and have a few different speakers, that have studied law, but then gone on to do different things with their career.
That's what led us to run the conference. And there were about 200 university students that attended. And yeah, it was a really great experience.
Catherine: So what kinds of people did you have there? Did you have judges or barristers or in-house legal counsel? What kinds of people came along to talk about their different roles?
Olivia: We definitely had a judge from the family court come and speak, and it was really interesting. And like you said, we also had an in-house lawyer, and we also had a couple of people that had gone off and done completely different careers altogether, that hadn't pursued law, but may have had a slight legal bent in their roles, but were definitely not in house legal counsel either. So yeah, a real range of people.
Catherine: And was that conference a one and done, or have people continued to do that since you've now departed the university?
Olivia: I think it would have been great to be able to continue that and sort of have it as a yearly thing. And we did talk about that when we first ran it. But I think since then the other core members that we ran the conference with, they've all gone off and done different things. So just as life has happened, we haven't been able to run it again.
Catherine: Yeah, well, I guess it's up to everybody else to also have the momentum to do something like that. But I think that's really fantastic. I've not heard of that being done before, so kudos to you for doing that, and doing something a little different. And I hope that people who hear this will also be inspired to do something like that while they're at university and even beyond university at any time.
And I think you're right there to share that experience of the fact that there are other careers. And I know as you just mentioned the clerkships and things that we had, large law firms would come in and take recruiting at universities and never really was it apparent to me that there were other careers available in the law.
And so I think that's really amazing that you did that, but also I think it's important that others who are listening know that there are many ways to be a lawyer, and to also use law in different ways and not be a lawyer, do other things with it, with a law degree. So that's really amazing.
So after you completed the legal professional studies, the profs course, you actually did work as a legal secretary for a while. And I think that's also rather interesting, many may not have decided to do something like that after they'd studied law. Is there something you learned or experienced from that secretarial role that now actually serves you as a lawyer? Perhaps it's appreciation for the massive role that our support staff have, and do for us in law firms, but is there anything else from that even just the short time that you had as a legal secretary that makes you sort of think about your role today?
Olivia: The reason I sort of became a legal secretary was because I finished my provisional legal studies course at quite an odd time. So it was quite hard to find a law job sort of midway through the year. But this job as a secretary was going, and I did make it clear, at the interview though, that I would like to pursue law as a lawyer at some point.
So whether that was going to be at that firm or elsewhere.
Catherine: And that was not Chapman Tripp. Right?
Olivia: No, this is at a different firm, Catherine.
And I think I thought I'd be qualified enough for the role as I am a touch typist. I'm really fast at typing. And I knew that the job was going to evolve doing dictation for letters and other legal documents.
So I thought, okay, well I can do that. And I actually really enjoyed doing that part of the job. And I also got to do a lot of land conveyancing, which was interesting because at that point I hadn't a hundred percent decided that I wanted to do corporate M&A, as I did have an interest in land law as well at university, I thought that could be a direction I went in.
But that experience helped me to decide that I didn't want to pursue a career as a land lawyer, but it was equally interesting.
Catherine: Very useful, right? To decide what not to do as well..
Olivia: And I think like you touched on, the overall experience was so fantastic when I did become a lawyer because I knew more what the role of a secretary was, and how I could effectively work with them as a team together when I became a lawyer.
And that experience, I found, was quite unique when I joined Chapman Tripp, because a lot of the other junior lawyers had no idea what a secretary did and didn't really utilize them. And it just meant that they were then a lot more busy doing all these things that they could actually have got assistance with if they learnt when you had to collaborate well with the secretary.
Catherine: Yeah, in collaboration, so important and treating people as equals in the firm as well. And as you've just touched upon, secretaries do a lot of the work that you'd think a lawyer might do, but they do a significant support role, and often know more about those practical areas of the law than what we coming out of law school and just doing profs know.
So I think they're really good points that you've touched upon. And after a few months, I think it was July 2015, you said you were admitted to the bar in New Zealand. And your first job was at the prestigious Chapman Tripp. And as I said before too, they usually recruit at university. So how did you search for that role?
And do you remember, what do you remember then about those early days of being a newly qualified lawyer in New Zealand?
Olivia: I researched the top three firms websites. Because often they have jobs posted on that. And I saw that Chapman Tripp was looking for a legal secretary role and I think someone else for their corporate service centre.
And so I thought, okay, well I might as well apply for that role and see how it goes.
So I applied for the role for the corporate service center, which Catherine is sort of like the printing and filing and binding sort of role. So really entry level role, but I thought, well, if it gets me in the door type thing, then it's worth it. So I went for that role.
Went for the interview, and the interviewer very kindly said to me that she thought I was a bit overqualified for the role. and she said that there wasn't much mobility really between the service center and then the legal department. So it wouldn't really help me get a role in the legal team.
Catherine: Yeah.
Olivia: And so I had the interview and then I sort of kept working as a secretary, and then a month later after that interview I got a phone call saying, Hey, we've got a role open in our corporate team as a junior solicitor, would you be interested to interview? And so I said, well, that'd be great.
So I went for that interview with two of the corporate partners and I got the role.
Catherine: Wow. So was that from the fact that you had gone in there on that corporate service center inquiry?
Olivia: Yes, it was, it was. They had got my name and they’d obviously put me down on the list for if they needed a corporate lawyer.
Catherine: How interesting, right? It wasn't wasted. I mean, I would've looked at that and gone, legal secretary, no, corporate service center, no, no, no. I want a legal job. Wow. How interesting. Yeah, you can never really underestimate the possibilities and the ways and means to acquire your first role. So how was it then in those first initial days or months of being a newly qualified lawyer at Chapman Tripp?
Olivia: It was a big learning curve. I don't think university really sets you up for what a law career brings. As a junior lawyer, I initially felt quite frustrated. so I think we have this image of what a lawyer is like, Catherine, and the sort of tasks that we might be doing.
But as a junior lawyer, you're often drafting ancillary documents or sort of setting up companies on, you know, the company's law office website or proofreading documents, and it can seem hard to understand if these tasks are actually taking you towards your goals as a lawyer. Yeah, I have one recollection of this story where I was proofreading an IPO prospectus and reading it out loud with a colleague to check that there was no errors.
And just thinking, why am I doing this? Like, is this really what it means to be a lawyer? And I've worked so hard for, so I think that was my first impression. And I remember talking to the partner and he sort of reassured me that no, this is taking you towards your goals and you will learn if you just sort of persevere and hang in there until you can see that bigger picture.
Catherine: Gosh, is that how it did happen then? You did persevere and you did get to your goals.
Olivia: I did, I did. And I think I saw over time how these tasks that I was being asked to do, were really assisting me and for the next things that I would be tasked with. So for example, proofreading that document was so important because a year later I ended up helping to draft that document for another IPO.
And to be able to know, firstly what was meant to be in it, and to spot things that look odd and need to come out, was just so, so important. So I learned that these small things do have a purpose, and are really important, and will set you up well for the next step, if you can just hang in there until you can, like I said, see that bigger picture about why you were doing those things.
Catherine: Right. That makes a lot of sense. I mean, we'd love it to be a bit more exciting in those first days or months of starting our career. But I think you've just hit the nail on the head there with it, the connection between that grind work, shall we say, and the actual work that really was important the year after, when you were doing the drafting, that makes a lot of sense.
And so then there's this big transition again from New Zealand to Japan for your first law role in Japan. I’ve got a couple of questions here that maybe will help others because I'm sure they're curious to know how you did it. So my first question is how you went about finding that role in Japan. Because I think many people who maybe are in New Zealand, who are listening to this or in other countries may think, you know, New Zealand's a long way from Japan.
So how does someone go about applying for a role in a big reputable firm? Like Baker McKenzie when you're all the way down in New Zealand? I know you said you were head hunted, but how did they find you on the radar? Had you met people at Baker McKenzie or what actually happened there to get you to that first step?
That's my first question.
Olivia: Sure. No, I hadn't met anyone at Baker McKenzie or any other law firm in Japan. I was literally just head hunted from my LinkedIn page. They saw that I had studied Japanese, and also was working at Chapman Tripp in corporate M&A and asked if I was interested to interview for the role. And once I started interviewing for that particular role, I decided, okay, well maybe it's time to explore other firms also in Japan, to see if they'd be interested in hiring me.
So I had a few interviews with other firms, before landing on that role at Baker McKenzie.
Catherine: Right. And did you know then that you had to get two years experience in order to work in Japan? Or where did you find that information from?
Olivia: I did. So I haven't mentioned it yet, but I actually married a Japanese national, in between coming home from the jet program and starting my career at Chapman Tripp.
Catherine: Aha.
Olivia: Yeah. So there was that, and then I always knew that I still had this passion for Japan and wanted to combine my Japanese and more interests together if possible, sometime in the future.
But obviously since I was head hunted, the sort of opportunity just came up a bit earlier than I initially expected Catherine. So I did know that you needed two years in your home jurisdiction in order to be qualified as a gaiben in Japan. So I always knew that I wanted those two years experience in New Zealand.
So I suppose that was what I thought what was in front of me. So I just worked for that. and then after two years, perhaps reassess whether I was to stay in New Zealand with my husband or whether it was time to move back to Japan
Catherine: Right. So I think that naturally leads to my second question, which is around managing that transition to Japan while you're in New Zealand, because at the end of 2016, I believe you were head hunted for that role. Right?
Olivia: That's right.
Catherine: But you didn't move to Japan for another year. End of 2017.
Olivia: That's right. So part of it was to make sure I got those two years experience. And then part of it, I think, was practical too. Like I actually needed to pick up my life, send all my things to Japan, and make sure that we were good to actually live in Japan. And my husband also had a job that he could come back to, cause he had quit his job.
He was a teacher and had quit that job in order to move to New Zealand. So he needed to be set up as well.
Catherine: Sure. And so how did you manage there knowing you were moving to Japan, but also continue to serve your New Zealand clients? I'm imagining the firm knew, or were you keeping that sort of vague so that you could make your decision at the end of two years what you want to actually do?
Olivia: I was never secretive about my Japanese interest. It was clear. I was married to a Japanese national, loved speaking Japanese, lived there for three years. And when I got the offer for the job, I was quiet about it until the appropriate time, like anyone is if you've received a new job opportunity.
So I don't think it impacted my role at Chapman Tripp in a negative way at all. It was a really positive thing that I was sort of moving on to the next step for me.
Catherine: More so you invested time differently in your work in New Zealand, because you knew in the back of your mind that you were going to be going. And so perhaps it was even a more intensive and quality driven approach to the way that you did your work in New Zealand.
Olivia: Yeah, I think so. Because after talking to people, once I knew that I might want to practice law in Japan and started having those conversations, were sort of asking, you know, what skills do you need? What's important to gain from that home jurisdiction experience to bring with you? And so, yeah, I think I was really intentional about getting as much experience as I could as a junior lawyer so that I was set up for that next step.
Catherine: Wow. Okay. So you were back in Japan now, and you had been in Japan before, you're married to a Japanese national, you know a lot about living in Japan, but how about the experience of being a lawyer in a law firm in Japan? It must've been very different to how you had worked in New Zealand. What do you remember about those early days there again at Baker McKenzie?
Olivia: So it was very different. I think, if I was going to summarize it, it would be like a baptism of fire to say the least. In New Zealand, even though law professionals were really hard working and sometimes we do work long hours, generally in New Zealand there’s a bit more of a nine to five working style. People tend to switch off more at the end of the day. They have more of a work-life balance mindset and spend time with their families a lot more, I think, than they do here in Japan.
In contrast, most professionals in Japan, I felt like when I first arrived here, really like a 24 mindset, they are almost on-call, they reluctantly take annual leave.
And so I think I was faced with this real clash of approaches and mindsets, and really had to work out what was going to work for me. Cause I didn't think either of those mindsets were going to take me forward in the direction that I wanted to go.
Catherine: So how did you know that it was the right decision to have come to Japan and take on the role with those things going on in your mind?
Olivia: Yeah, well, I think I knew I really loved the work. And so, I sort of had to really find a new approach that was going to work for me. So over time, I suppose, over that first year, I sort of tried different things. I suppose I did give the 24 7 mindset a go for a time, but just felt that I got completely burnt out and it wasn't going to work.
And maybe this is some advice perhaps for younger lawyers, or lawyers that have worked overseas, and wanting to move to Japan. A couple of things. So firstly, from a practical perspective, rather than the concept of balance, the word integration, I found much more helpful.
And this was a real game changer for me when I came across this. So as you know, that M&A work is really dynamic, it's really busy. So for me, being able to sort of pop back to work after dinner with family to take a client call, or doing work from home, catching up on a training session while preparing dinner.
So integrating these sort of parts of my work into my life was just so much more helpful. Because in fact, yeah, I often find as well that I get my best ideas when I'm out running and when I'm actually away from my desk. This sort of freed me to just look at my work in a totally new way.
Even though it sounds really simple, it really was a game changer.
Catherine: Wow, that's brilliant. Gosh, that's so brilliant. And you know, you're doing your running, you're getting your ideas. And I think perhaps the firm’s realised this at the end of the day, that it is important, and I agree with you totally on not balance, it's integration and weaving that in. So when you're at work, some personal things will come up.
When you're at home, some work things will come up, but that's the way it's going to be. I think it's very difficult to distinguish work and home. It doesn't really happen. Does it?
Olivia: Yeah, and I think that's one thing, Catherine. I think the other thing, was viewing my life more as a puzzle, rather than the either either image of scales. To look at it as like a puzzle, and to see my paid work, you know, my profession is just part of that puzzle.
It's just sort of one of the things that brings me joy, you know, like leisure activities, as well as non-paid work. So, you know, housework and life admin, and now child-rearing, you know, bringing up my son, sort of makes up the remainder of those puzzle pieces and all of them contribute to my overall wellbeing and happiness and make me who I am.
Catherine: Yeah, I love that. That's really great. And at Bakers, you stayed there for just over two years, I think? So what would be your advice then for associates who are looking for how long they should be staying in a role? Is there any set sort of thinking around roles these days or does it just depend on where you are, where you want to go next?
What would you say?
Olivia: I think it depends on where you want to go next. Because I think for everyone that looks really different. I always had a goal of two years in my mind because I feel like that's a solid time to be at any job. and you sort of get to know the culture of the firm. You get great experience within that time.
And then I sort of always set that as a time to then re-assess, like do I stay and keep doing what I'm doing here and move forward in this context? Or is it time to make a change and shift somewhere else?
Catherine: Right. And so you did in fact join Allen and Overy where you are now. And how do you recommend then as a good way for parting with one firm and joining another in the same city? Is that hard to do, or do you have some tips on how to do that rather more smoothly?
Olivia: I don't know if I have tips on how to do it more smoothly. We're all sort of one family in a sense. It's like, I feel like at some point I'll be back across negotiating at the table with Baker McKenzie lawyers. So I suppose I didn't, even though I was changing firms, I sort of still see myself as part of that same sort of legal family.
But I think it is important to know what the next steps are for you. And for me, it was really, to work alongside Nick Wall and Tokutaka Ito. They’re fantastic partners, great experience. But especially for Nick Wall, he's a fellow Kiwi, he's a fantastic lawyer, he also speaks fluent Japanese. So for me, he's such a great role model and inspires me to keep honing my Japanese language skills, because I can see the value that it brings to client relationships. And for me, that was the next step that I really needed, was to have someone as a role model day to day, that can really help me grow as a lawyer, but also in that Japanese language as well.
Catherine: Wow. Well, let's give Nick and Ito Sensei a shout out and we'll make sure that hopefully they're on LinkedIn, we'll tag them and let them know how much you are appreciating them and how much they mean to you, and you succeeding in your practice right now and your life and living as a lawyer.
That's really fantastic. You've been managing this role remotely, right? Since you joined?
Olivia: That's right. Yes. No, I was onboarded at home and I got all the IT equipment sent to my house, and a call with IT to work out how to set everything up. So it's been a really interesting but unusual couple of years.
Catherine: Yeah. So how do you do that successfully? They send everything to you. How do you keep your communication and comradery with Nick and Ito sensei and all your other colleagues?
Olivia: Yeah. So we've had regular check ins and I think that's not just been for me, but for all associates in the firm and to ensure that everyone's sort of tracking, just because when you can't physically see people, you don't know, it's much easier when you're in the office.
You can see if someone's having a bit of a hard day just to pop in and have a chat or go out for coffee, but you can't often sense that when people are at home. But the firm has been great at checking in and I really hope that it's something that can continue when we do go back into the office. I think that was a really positive thing.
Catherine: Yeah, because I wanted to ask you about that. If you think the pandemic is going to affect the delivery of legal services, the way we work as lawyers, will it all revert back or do you think some things are going to change forever?
Olivia: I think there are some things that will change. I don't think we can ever go back to where we were and I don't think we want to necessarily. I think there's things that we've learned from working from home during the pandemic that have been positive and that we can bring forward when we go back into the office, whether that's full-time or whether that's just a few days a week.
I think that will depend probably on the firm culture. I know for A&O they're keen for people to get back at least a few days a week, because it does build relationship when you are together. There is no doubt about that. So I'm excited about that. I'm excited about going back and actually meeting some people that I haven't met yet.
Catherine: And that timing could well work nicely after you've completed your maternity leave as well. If you are heading back into the office at that point. Yeah?
Olivia: Yes, I'm hoping so.
Catherine: Right. So what do you really enjoy about your role now and what parts of it really excite you and how are you able to do this M&A and deals distantly?
Olivia: Sure. So I think what I love about M&A is that it's complex, it's really fast paced, transactional work. You're able to work with a lot of different stakeholders across different cultures and languages. So I just find that really engaging.
And I think the other thing would be Catherine, is that M&A also has a real impact on business. And this impact is often quite visible. So whether the deal that you're working on might appear in the media, or is an IPO, for example, or can often be physically visible. So for example, I worked on a deal where we actually established a retail store in Japan. So there was a physical presence, evidence of my hard work.
And that's a real driver for me.
Catherine: Oh, I love that. Was that during this last two years that you had that experience?
Olivia: Yes, that's right. Yeah. So over my time in Japan, I was able to see that. Actually for two businesses established, but yeah, but the retail one was in the last couple of years.
Catherine: And you hit on a good point there because sometimes as lawyers, we don't see that physical representation of our work. And it was funny when I was in New Zealand I sent a package back to Japan, and opening the package, the packaging material is a company that I do work with, and seeing their name in front of me was really, like you've just said, very inspiring knowing that what I had done was reflected in the actual package that I was using to send a product over to Japan.
And so I get that and I feel you really do feel it. And you don't often have that feeling when you're a lawyer because things are on paper. So I'm hearing you on that one as well. That's cool.
So I'm going to talk to you about maternity leave, and I know you will know that in season two of the podcast, I did speak to Xue Wang, who is the first woman partner in your firm, in Tokyo, to take maternity leave.
And in season one, we also heard from your colleague, Hitomi Komachi, and she very much touched upon her maternity leave and the culture of diversity in A&O. And this is not meant to be an A&O advertisement or that I've selected all of you.
You've just been inspiring and outstanding lawyers extraordinaire that I wanted to talk to. You just happened to come from this firm at the moment. And I think listeners, you know, if they're interested to hear, they can pop over and listen to those episodes, but you've just started this journey, your own maternity leave journey.
And I think that really speaks volumes about the diversity philosophy at A&O. So tell us about this experience so far for you as a lawyer taking maternity leave in Japan in the middle of your career. I'm so interested to hear.
Olivia: Sure. So I think personally, I decided that I wanted to have at least five years experience under my belt before thinking about starting a family. I think that was really important for me to feel like I was in a good position then to return to work, if I chose to do that after my maternity leave.
So I think I had just over five years experience before I decided that that was the right timing to do that. So far it's been a great time away from my work. I haven't been too bothered by work emails, although I'm just naturally still curious to see what's going on. So sort of checking in a few times a week, just to sort of see how the deals that I was working on are progressing.
I know there's no pressure to do any work actively during this time. So I really appreciate that my colleagues are really respecting this time away with my family.
Catherine: So you just sneak in a view just to see what's going on, but you're not expected to do anything. How much leave can you actually take and what sort of support do you get while you're away?
Olivia: So the support has been fantastic. I think Xue might have touched on it, but we have some coaching available, which we get three sessions, I believe. I've already had one of them and it was really helpful, before going on leave just sort of to characterize what the season could be for me.
So it doesn't have to be sort of like a blank in your career at all. You could actually sort of recharacterize it to see it as a time of learning or a time of refreshing. And so when you come back, you're sort of ready to go again. And I've got two more of those sessions. I think one during maternity leave and one when I come back to the office, and those sessions are not only offered to associates, but also offered to the partners.
Because it's all very well, as an associate, getting all this great advice, but if you don't have someone that you can implement it with, and it's not really on the same page, it could be quite a challenge. And so that is just fantastic. And I don't know how many other firms offer that, but it is a massive benefit that I'm really grateful for.
Catherine: I haven't heard about it. I think that philosophy is incredible. Is it originating in Japan or is it outside of Japan? It's globally within A&O. How does that work?
Olivia: To be honest, I'm not entirely sure whether it's a benefit that's offered to all associates in A&O’s offices or whether it's just Japan focused. My particular coach that I’ve been working with is, I think, half Japanese. So she speaks Japanese. She understands the culture here, which has also been fantastic.
So it's not just sort of legal advice I'm receiving that sort of in this vacuum, but it's actually really real and really helpful in the context of my clients that I serve.
Catherine: And are the coaches from outside, they're specifically qualified for coaching to help you?
Olivia: Correct. Yes. They use a coaching organisation.
Catherine: I see. How incredible? I think that's amazing. I think we could go further into that. I love that they're doing it before you go on maternity leave and that you're calling it a season, right? It is a season, like one of the other seasons that we just experienced as part of our process going through life.
And I like that it's called a season. Then you have that one when you return, and during as well, but also that's not only for you, but also for the partners and other people around you to understand the processes. I think that must just engender so much more understanding of this season that you have.
It's really incredible. I also think it must be a real hiring plus to attract talent to the firm. Would that be right?
Olivia: I assume so. I didn't actually know about this benefit when I went through the interview process. So it came as a great surprise to me and yeah, it's really been wonderful to have that support there.
Catherine: Wow. That's fantastic. So what's your future dream for your role in the future of law, as you are sitting here now, looking forward?
Olivia: So if I put it out there, let's speak it out.
Catherine: It's going to happen.
Olivia: I’d love to be managing partner at a firm one day. That would be my big goal. So, let's just put that out there and leave that.
Catherine: That's what we need to do is put it out into the atmosphere, in to the environment and it might well happen, I think, and managing partner is in your future. That's wonderful.
Are there any other tips you have then for the long-term success as a lawyer in Japan? You've talked about managing having to have five years before having a family.
That sounds like a very strategic way to have your law career, do that before commencing a family. Any other kinds of tips for long term success as a lawyer in a law firm in Japan?
Olivia: Touching back on what I was speaking to before about the mindset of an M&A lawyer, I think another thing that's really helped me is taking at least one day out a week, or if that's not possible due to the deals I'm working on, sort of time out when the deal closes, just to refresh, because I think it's so important not to burn out. As if you're in that stage, you have no use to clients or your firm, as you're at risk of making mistakes and bad decisions when you're operating on empty. Really important to know what fills your tank and to make time for those things, so that you're operating at your best.
And I think as a woman, I think we're really relational. And in my experience here, we often put our hands up to do, what I would call office housework, over and above focusing on our billables. As a lawyer doing cross border M&A we're already so busy and so stretched, and then we have, you know, our family commitments on top of that.
It's really important that one, if you're going to engage in this type of work, booking restaurants, or planning social gatherings, or I don't know what else, making sure everyone signs the birthday card for the team, or volunteering on internal committees.
All these sorts of things are so positive, but they just take a lot of time, they often go unrecognized. So making sure that if you engage in these sorts of activities, they are recognized when you have your performance reviews, that you have discussions and can explain to the people that you work with the value you're bringing by engaging in these kinds of activities.
And I think also too, it would be great if men could start to see perhaps the value in these types of tasks too, and could also engage in these. Because I think it is really important to build that office culture, and build an environment where people want to come to work, and want to work together.
Catherine: Great points. Like not to not, not do it. Right? So not saying that you shouldn't do these activities, but to also make sure that they are recognized. And have everybody doing it, not just a certain sector of the firm doing it. I think those are really great points. Fantastic.
Well, I'm going to move on to just talk a little bit about your routine, things that you are now doing, I guess, compared to when you were in the office or when you were working and not on maternity leave.
Things are different, but what about starting your day when you're usually off maternity leave and how that compares to now and what you're doing, to start off your workday or your season that you are having right now.
Olivia: Before having my child, I would wake up, I'd have a coffee, check my work emails to make sure that there was nothing urgent that I need to respond to before doing anything else. Then I would make my husband's bento box.
Catherine: Lunch, yeah?
Olivia: Yeah, it's something I started doing in New Zealand and I just have kept doing. And then, it's really important to me to go for a run or a walk in the morning before the day gets busy.
What else do I do? Come home, have breakfast, put the washing on, and then I'll get into work. So that's sort of my routine. So I assume now with my child in the mix, I suppose we'll have to add in sort of organizing him and feeding him into that.
Catherine: Yeah, of course. And how about winding down at the end of the day?
Olivia: So it depends on the day. Often, you know, during my work will do lots of meetings at night, just due to the time zone differences. So there's a couple of patterns. I'd either sort of have a glass of wine to wind down while cooking and then debrief a day with my husband and perhaps read before bed to calm down.
Or if I have meetings at night, my husband might already be asleep, so I might just have a cup of tea and some chocolate, and then do some stretches or take a bath to wind down. But either way, it's really important for me to quiet my mind at the end of the day to make sure I have a good sleep..
Catherine: Right. I get that. And by this time, if we were in person, we would have had one or two craft gins, I think. So tell me then traits that you're really proud of. And what success means to you. This is the deep and meaningful part of the podcast.
Olivia: Sure. I think the trait that I'm most proud of is my perseverance. I never give up ever. And I think this has served me really well in my role as an M&A lawyer, as we often have to work long and unfriendly hours. We might have tough negotiating partners and these are always complex legal challenges that require real creative solutions to get the deal over the line.
So I think this attitude and this grit that I have, of never giving up, yeah, it's something I'm really proud of.
Catherine: And that's part of what success is for you then, or that has helped you to be successful in the way that you've been able to pick yourself up and carry on.
Olivia: Yeah, I think that has contributed to my success. but I think what success means to me is perhaps slightly different. I think success means to me probably progressing in life. So that means growing in my character, as well as achieving my goals. So that sort of two fold for me. And I think a sort of phrase that characterizes me quite well is, for me every day starts at zero.
So for me, it’s really important to achieve something throughout the day, even if it's a really small thing. So at the moment on maternity leave, that looks quite different of course, to what it might look like when I'm being a busy M&A lawyer. But that sense of achievement really does drive me.
And I'd probably say as my why, you know, they have that concept of your why, yeah, achievement would be mine.
Catherine: So I was going to ask you if you had a word of the year or theme or mantra that guides you, but it sounds like that is it, achievement.
Olivia: Yes, I think overall it's achievement. But I've actually been quite inspired by your theme of the year or word of the year concept. And I've done a lot of thinking about that actually, from listening to some of the other people that you've had on your podcast, Catherine. And I think for me this year, I've decided I'm going to have a word and my word is going to be connection, I think.
Yeah. And so due to the pandemic, obviously we've been remotely working a lot, but I'm excited about connecting with clients face to face again. And also building new connections, both in the professional sphere, by engaging in networking events again, but also in the personal sphere, hopefully making some new mamatomo, some new friends with children too.
Catherine: Sure. And I mean, you must know that I love connection as well. And so if there's anything you and I can do together to start something almost like your little conference that you did, some innovative idea to help people, lawyers connect, let's do that. I'd love to try and think about that with you. It’d be fun.
Olivia: That sounds fantastic.
Catherine: Well, what about then, you've talked about great things that drive you, what about the wisest thing that someone has ever said to you that has really encouraged you all the way through? Maybe it's from your family, from Nick, from your husband, from somebody through your life, the wisest thing that you've ever had said to you and who said it and what was it?
Olivia: In a work context, one of the best pieces of advice I've received was from my supervising partner at Chapman Tripp in my first year. And it was given in the context of being asked to assist a client with a database entry task.
So to be honest, Catherine, I couldn't really see why the client needed a lawyer's assistance for this task.
So I politely inquired why we needed to do this. And I suppose I hoped the answer would help me to see a link to my goals and motivate me to do the task. but instead the response was, well, sometimes we've just got to do the things we don't want to do.
Catherine: Right.
Olivia: Which took me back a little bit, I think at the time.
But in hindsight, that was just what I needed to hear. And later, reflecting on the comment, I could see the purpose of the task was to build the client relationship. And while it doesn't necessarily link to my personal growth as a lawyer, it was just as important as if the client had asked us to draft a document because it's what they needed.
And our role as lawyers is to serve the client. So I think that advice really helped me and it continues to pop into my mind sometimes and helps me to see the bigger picture.
Catherine: Wow. Super. How about the other reverse side of that, advice that someone's given you that sounded like it was good for you at the time, but hasn't really served you well.
Olivia: I can't really recall any bad advice. I assume I probably just shrugged it off and thought, well, I'm not going to take that on board. So I don't think anything comes to mind, in particular,
Catherine: Perhaps with your perseverance mindset, that's been very helpful to sort of dispel any of those kinds of myths that have come up as well.
Olivia: Yeah I think so.
Catherine: Well, gosh, as we step into this year then Olivia, what are you thinking about for the rest of this year and any other tips that you would like to share or inspiration for other lawyers who are planning out this year?
It's February. We know it's already February when this airs, it's likely to be a little bit later, but what about that for other people and what you're thinking about, for personal and career development activities this year.
Olivia: For this year I've set the challenge for myself to see how I can work effectively alongside the AI that we've got at our firm. I know we've got so many tools. I'm always getting emails about tools for project management, tools to review contracts, to assist us with the review task.
So I think I really want to dig into those resources at our firm, and start to use them more so that I can be more effective in my job, for our clients.
Catherine: Fantastic. That sounds like a great thing. That's great that you've got the tools, but you've got to learn how to use them.
Olivia: That's right. Yeah. And I think it's easy. We sort of get stuck in our ways and doing the things we've always done is often easier. And it can seem sort of burdensome to take time out to learn how to use these new tools. But I do know that if we take the time out, it'll be well worth the weight in gold once we know how to use them.
Catherine: Hmm. Wow. That's amazing. And so anything today, Olivia, that we didn't cover that you wanted to mention or anything you did talk about, but you want to re-emphasize?
Olivia: A couple of things on the advice side for younger lawyers, I think there's two things. The first is three key practices that I think are really helpful to establish when you start out as a lawyer.
The first one, so tackle the hardest task first. So you don't get stuck endlessly replying to emails.
Also to block out time in your calendar for both meetings and tasks, to make sure that you don't run out of time to get the actual client work done, and also helps with time recording.
And to set aside time to plan and create a mental map of what you're going to do I think that saves time at the end of the day. And it also saves clients money because you're not wasting time redoing work. And you're also able to turn your mind to potential roadblocks at the beginning of the task so that you're prepared for the unexpected and you can pivot more quickly.
So those three things; tackle the hardest task first, block out time in your calendar for meetings and tasks, and set aside time to plan, I think will set you up really well. So I think that's sort of on the practical side, Catherine.
From a more conceptual side perhaps. Something that I wish that I had known when I started in my career, is that relationships are more important than being right. And I think naturally as lawyers, we tend to think we're right and we want to persuade the other party of this, and not really back down until we've won the point per se, but I've really learned that relationships, even with the counterparty on the deal, are more important to preserve than our pride.
And it's so important never to lose a relationship over a difference of opinion, whether that's with internal or external clients, as relationships are key. And I think, yeah, if you keep that, you can't go wrong if you keep that in the forefront of your mind.
Catherine: Super super advice. I love those. You've captured it very, very well. Well done you.
Well, Olivia, we're going to head into the very final part of the podcast episode today, and that's the super six I call it. A quick fire round of six questions that I ask everyone to wind up the interview. And the first one you've probably heard me ask many times before if I had a million yen in cash and I could give it to you, where in Japan would you spend it, at your favorite store or destination or both?
Olivia: So we've been looking to buy a house in the last year or so. So part of it would be to use for a house deposit.
Catherine: Nice.
Olivia: Yep. And then part of it, I would like to give to world vision, which is an NGO that both me and my husband support,
Catherine: Fantastic. Good. Only half and half that would be
Olivia: Well, maybe a little bit more for the house to buy, because it would be nice to get that project off the ground.
Catherine: Yeah.
I hope that comes through. I'm sorry, I can't give you that. It's lovely to hear what people think about when they have the idea of having that cash on hand. Our second question is, around sharing perhaps a podcast or a book, that you've listened to or read or are reading or listening to at the moment that you'd recommend.
Olivia: For books, I've just read a book called To Be Fair by Rosemary Riddell.
Catherine: Oh, it's a great book. Isn't it?
Olivia: It's wonderful. And it's very humorous. I had so many laughs. It's a great book to wind down before bed and she recounts various inside stories of her experience as a judge.
Catherine: Yeah. She was a judge in New Zealand. She's retired, but she's written this book. Never thought she'd write a book, but I loved it. I read it while I was in New Zealand and it was absolutely fantastic. And I've brought a copy back with me. So anyone who would like to borrow it, I have a copy available for you to have a look at that too.
I'm so glad that we've both read that so recently. That's awesome.
Olivia: Yeah, so that's books and then what's the other one? Podcast. So I listened to a podcast regularly called NPR Hidden Brain by Shankar Vedantam. He's the host. And the podcast uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices, and direct our relationships.
And it's super interesting. One I listened to recently, Catherine, was all about how others perceive you and how often we can be a lot more worried about how others are perceiving us, than we really need to be. So yeah, lots of insights into human behavior. Yeah. So really interesting, I think as lawyers, obviously working with people in our jobs, so I think I found it really, really interesting.
Catherine: I have lots of podcasts I'm sort of subscribed to, but I think one of them is that, but I may not have listened to it for a little while. So I'm going to promise you today, I'll listen to that, and listen to that episode, you've just recommended. Thank you for that. My third question then is your favorite saying, but you've already told us that every day starts at zero.
Is there something else that you think about like a “kotowaza”, a Japanese saying, or other kind of saying that you have on top of every day starts at zero?
Olivia: I think another one in Japanese, it probably “Ichi go, ichi e”, I really love.
Catherine: What does that mean?
Olivia: So the concept is, I won't translate it directly, but it's that every moment is really unique and special and that you should treasure every moment as such.
Catherine: Very much so. Is there a famous person or celebrity you would love to meet or have already met?
Olivia: I've never been a big fan of celebrities. Even growing up, I wasn't one of those kids that had lots of posters on their wall. That doesn't really appeal to me. I think I assumed that I'd never be able to meet them. And so I sort of just gave up on the idea, but I do have a favourite Japanese band called monkey magic, they're a bunch of Canadian singers with Japanese musicians.
And they actually came to New Zealand, and through a music connection of mine, because I play keys, and so through that connection, she's half Japanese and she was doing a show with them while they were in New Zealand to record a new album. And so I heard about it and went along to this little bar and I actually got to meet them.
I think I was their only Kiwi fan. And there's a few other Japanese people that went along. But it was fantastic. And I got to have drinks with them after the gig. And yeah, it was wonderful because you wouldn't get that experience here in Japan because they're really famous.
Catherine: You play keyboard?
Olivia: I do, yes.
Catherine: Oh, and who was the half Japanese person who you mentioned there?
Olivia: Her name's Kat McDowell.
Catherine: Oh yes. Yeah. I thought it might be her. I've heard of her before. Haven't seen her for a little while in Japan, but yes, that's who I was thinking of. Yeah.
Okay, great. Well, there you go. You never know. Do you?
Olivia: No, you never know.
Catherine: Well, your bedside cabinet, that's the next question, there's two more. What's on your bedside cabinet at home that inspires you?
And why is that?
Olivia: So, I'm not sure if there's anything that particularly inspires me. But I do have a really cool lamp. It's called Lumio and it's a book, the shape of a book and it opens up. And so the pages inside, obviously they don't have writing on them, but it all illuminates. Its very cool and it's magnetic too.
So you can sort of stick it to things and it's transportable. It's charged by a USB cable. So I think that's the coolest thing I've bought in a while and yeah, so maybe it does inspire me.
Catherine: Oh, I think I've seen those. Yeah. Good one.
Olivia: Yeah. And there’s my phone charger and I think the book that’s on the go at the time.
Catherine: Right. Fantastic. And then the last question there is, what is something about you that a lot of people don't know? And I didn't know you played keyboards, so that's one thing I've learned from you today. At least in these final questions.
Olivia: Yeah. So maybe a couple of things. Depending on who you talk to, some people might not know that I'm an avid snowboarder. I love it. It's one of the things that I do to recharge. I love the rush of adrenaline when you're calving down the mountain or in the snowpark, so that's one thing.
So for people that did know that about me, one thing that you might not know is that when I was in university, I really loved vintage fashion and I always wanted to search for something unique and didn't want to wear anything that anyone else was wearing. Of course this had to change when I became a lawyer, I had to start investing in a bit more formal attire.
So I don't think I have anything, from an op shop or a vintage clothing shop in my wardrobe at the moment.
Catherine: Wow. I'm sure you often frequent Shimokitazawa though, having a little look around there.
Olivia: I do. I still love it, I think for inspiration, but I mean in Japan we are so spoiled for choice or for clothing stores. And I think you can get things that are really unique, that is still a really good quality and that are work appropriate.
Catherine: Very good. Well, that's been super exciting. I didn't know any of that about you, and it's really interesting to hear. Thank you so much, Olivia. We have actually come to the end. You've really shared such an amazing journey, your inspirational stories of your career, your profession, you are balancing your life goals, no, you are integrating your life goals with your career, and you've really shown us that you can do anything if you set your mind to it across geographies and other perceived limitations with having perseverance and continuing along your path and pushing out anything that's negative.
And I really think you've shown that through, not just saying it, but I can hear it in your voice that you've been doing that. So I really want to thank you for taking the time for sharing your wonderful story, your insights and those nuggets of advice. It's been really fabulous to be able to connect with you again in this way.
Thank you so much.
Olivia: Thank you for having me, Catherine, it's been wonderful to spend time speaking with you. And I hope that what I've said has inspired people or has been thought provoking.
Catherine: I'm sure it has been. How can people connect with you if they would like to do that? Would they do that on LinkedIn?
Olivia: Yes, LinkedIn would be the best way to do that.
Catherine: That's fantastic. We'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes. So anyone who's interested can connect with you there. Well, thank you so much again for being my second guest in season three of Lawyer on Air. I really want to thank you.
It's been so important to have this time with you, and I really wish you the very, very best for an enjoyable maternity leave. And for that study of those IP AI tools that you’ve got up your sleeve coming up. So for my listeners, please do like this episode, subscribe to Lawyer on Air, and do just drop us a short review if you can, because that does help lawyer on air to be seen by more people and heard by more people.
I've really enjoyed hearing all of the feedback that we've received by voicemail on the website as well. So you can pop over there and leave an actual voicemail for me as well. So do go ahead and share this episode of another of my legal eagles, with someone you think will really enjoy listening to it and be inspired to live a wonderful lawyer extraordinaire life.
That's all for me now. See you on the next episode. Cheers, kampai, and bye for now.
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