Episode Nine: How to take a leadership role in your law career with Jenifer Rogers
Full transcript below.
I know there are so many lawyers who have been waiting to hear from our guest today: Jenifer Rogers. Sit back, buckle up and be prepared to be amazed and dazzled as we traverse her career in the law and hear about how she has found and made opportunities work for her. Jenifer is not only a powerhouse in the legal world but also turns her skills to help non-profits in areas she is passionate about. If you didn’t know Jenifer you might not realise just how big her heart is and how seriously she takes her impact on the world.
If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Head over to Apple Podcasts to leave a review and we’d love it if you would leave us a message here!
In this episode you’ll hear:
Jenifer’s early life and how she came to be in Japan and then the law
How she became General Counsel in her 30s
The importance of noticing assumptions in difficult situations
Jenifer’s various pathways to attaining the board positions she holds, and her idea of networking that facilitated this
Her advice for up and coming lawyers as well as the future of law
Her favourite podcast, and other fun facts
About Jenifer
Jenifer Rogers is General Counsel of Asia for Asurion based in Tokyo. She was elected as an External Director of Mitsui & Co. Ltd in 2015 as the first foreign female director of a Japanese trading company. She was also elected as an External Director to the Board of Kawasaki Heavy Industries, Ltd. in June 2018 as their first female and foreign director and to the Board of Nissan Motor Co., Ltd in June 2019 and serves on its Audit and Compensation Committees. Before joining Asurion in 2012, Jenifer worked at (what is now) the Bank of America Merrill Lynch for 18 years in a variety of senior legal roles in various cities including Dublin, Hong Kong, London, Mumbai, New York and Tokyo.
Jenifer was elected as the President of the American Chamber of Commerce in Japan in January in 2021, after serving as a Governor since January 2018 and as a Vice President from January 2020. She also serves on other not-for profit boards: since June 2016, Jenifer has been elected and served on the Georgetown University Alumni Association Board of Governors and in May 2018 was appointed by the American Ambassador of Japan to the Japan US Education Commission (Fulbright Japan) as Treasurer. She became a member of the Board of the U.S.-Japan Council (Japan) in April 2019. Jenifer is a founding member of the Japan Center of the Asia Society and a member of its Arts Committee. More recently in November 2020, she was appointed to the Board of Councilors of the Okinawa Institute of Science and Technology Graduate University.
Jenifer earned a JD from Georgetown Law Center after graduating cum laude from Georgetown University School of Foreign Service. Jenifer was a Fulbright Scholar in 1988 at the University of Tokyo, Faculty of Law. She obtained a master’s degree in International Public Policy from Johns Hopkins (S.A.I.S.) and worked as a legal consultant for the World Bank. She is a member of the New York bar and fluent in Japanese.
Connect with Jenifer
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenifer-rogers-0592306/
Links
Andaz Rooftop Bar: https://www.andaztokyo.jp/restaurants/jp/rooftop-bar/
Feel better live more podcast: https://drchatterjee.com/blog/category/podcast/
Thinking fast and Slow book: https://www.amazon.co.jp/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp/0141033576
Catherine’s LinkedIn Articles:
Non-negotiables when deciding legal roles
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/non-negotiables-when-deciding-legal-roles-catherine-o-connell
Must have list for board roles in Japan
Connect with Catherine
Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148
Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer
Transcript
Catherine: Hi, everyone. Welcome to this ninth episode of Lawyer On Air, I'm Catherine O'Connell. Today, I'm joined by Jenifer Rogers, who is General Counsel for Asia for Asurian based in Tokyo. Asurian is the leading consumer electronics protection and support service provider globally, partnering with the world's largest carriers and retailers. In Japan, they serve 68 million customers. You need to buckle up for my introduction of Jenifer as it's one of the fullest profiles of a person I know. Jenifer is a member of the New York bar, fluent in Japanese and became a general counsel at the age of 32. She earned a JD from Georgetown Law Center after graduating cum laude from Georgetown University School of Foreign Service. Jenifer was a Fulbright Scholar in 1988 at the University of Tokyo Faculty of Law. She obtained a master's degree in International Public Policy from Johns Hopkins and worked as a legal consultant for the World Bank.
Jenifer was elected as an external director of Mitsui & Co Limited in 2015 as the first foreign female director of a Japanese trading company. She was also elected as an external director of the board of Kawasaki Heavy Industries Limited in June 2018 as their first female and foreign director. She was further elected to the board of Nissan Motor Co in June 2019 and serves on its audit and compensation committee.
Before joining Asurian in 2012, Jenifer worked at what is now the Bank of America Merrill Lynch, in a number of senior legal roles in various cities, including Dublin, Hong Kong, London, Mumbai, New York, and Tokyo. I was really thrilled when I heard the news that Jenifer had been elected as the President of the American Chamber of Commerce in Japan, the ACCJ and that was in January this year. I'm proud to serve alongside her and the ACCJ as Co-Chair of the Legal Services and IP Committee. ACCJ is the largest and most active global business community in Japan with over 3000 members. Jenifer rose to that President role as the third female president in the 73 year history of the American Chamber after serving as governor, since January 2018, and as vice president from January 2020.
And Jenifer doesn't stop there, she also has an impressive list of nonprofit boards that she sits on. Since June 2016, Jennifer has been elected and served on the Georgetown University Alumni Association, Board of Governors. In May 2018, she was appointed by the American Ambassador of Japan to the Japan-US Education Commission as Treasurer and she became a member of the board of the US-Japan Council in April 2019. Jenifer is also a founding member of the Japan Center of the Asia Society and a member of its Arts Committee. More recently in November 2020, Jennifer was appointed to the Board of Councilors of the Okinawa Institute of Science and Technology School Corporation.
Phew, what a lineup, like me, I'm sure many of you will be amazed how one person can do a full-time lawyer job and be involved in so many activities and still find time for her health and wellbeing, as we will hear. Jenifer is someone I very much admire and look up to, and she may not know this, but I watch her closely to absorb how she shows up and exerts her own style of calm and inclusive leadership. Jenifer is leading an incredible lawyer life and I'm utterly proud and excited to bring Jenifer to you as my guest today. Jenifer welcome to the show
Jenifer: Gosh Catherine. Thank you so much. What a fantastic introduction. I'm a bit overwhelmed, but I appreciate the sharing of that, and I really am looking forward to speaking to you today.
Catherine: Thank you so much. That's your introduction. I need a glass of water as well after saying all of that. Amazing. And today Jennifer, we're going to talk about lots of topics, your early days in the US and Japan. What brought you into the law. Your career as a lawyer in Japan and other exotic places, how you juggle all of these board roles and you know, maybe what's on your plans for the future. And I'd really love you to offer up some nuggets of advice for young lawyers for their careers and beyond. How does that sound?
Jenifer: That sounds great. Let's go.
Catherine: Okay, well, we're talking online today, still in the middle of a pandemic. Hopefully, we can meet up in person again shortly, but if we were going to meet up sometime very soon, do you have a favourite wine bar, restaurant, or cafe you love to go to? And what would be your choice off the menu today?
Jenifer: Uh, that's an interesting question and I do hope that we can meet in person in the near future. I do love wine, in particular, though my favourite beverage is champagne and I love places that have a beautiful view of Tokyo. So I would probably want to go high maybe to the Andaz Hotel Bar, to the rooftop there, so I could see a view and relax and have a great glass of bubbles.
Catherine: Oh, only a glass?
Jenifer: Well, who knows? I think with you, Catherine, I think we'd probably be talking for a long time, so perhaps we could split a bottle,
Catherine: Split a bottle. That would be fantastic. I love the Andaz, so let's plan to go there. You and I have known each other for a few years now, and in the days when there was a ball circuit, pre-COVID in Tokyo, we often shared a table with our friend Heather, and others, and we had fun bidding on silent auctions for charity. More often than not, your name comes up and you win those bids, but not having been to those events means I really treasure those memories so much more. How have you been keeping your spirits up over these last 18 months without those kinds of events that I know you're really passionate about?
Jenifer: I think obviously this has been a challenging time for all of us with less kind of human connection built into our day. I have been working remotely at home. So what I've tried to focus on this time is keeping myself healthy from my spiritual and mental as well as a physical perspective, because it's the one thing you can really control. Also ensuring that while the connections and the events don't happen in the evening as they used to, that I'm connecting with family and friends, maybe one-on-one, or online, or by phone. And so for me, I do like podcasts quite a bit, and I've been listening to a lot of ones that talk about how to maintain a healthy lifestyle. I've taken up meditation during this period of time. I'm quite dedicated to making that part of my morning routine. And so that's what I've been trying to do. Keep up the human connection in various different ways. But then making sure I'm grounded and centred and I'm taking care of myself. So that I'm showing up a hundred percent.
Catherine: Wow, that is fantastic. I think your comment on keeping health at number one was really something that's similar to me. I changed my health lifestyle from January this year and really focused on keeping my immunity up and making sure I'm out for walks and things like that. So, although I'd love to wear a ball dress again, I think it's going to be a little bit more of a wait until we get to do that. So I'm really glad to hear you're doing that as well Jenifer, keeping up your healthy inner spirit. How about let's go back to your early days in your career and how you've just had such a substantial career. But I remember you telling me back in March, when we were doing a fireside chat for Women In Law Japan, for International Women's Day, you mentioned about your mum being in the medical field and how that rubbed off on you initially. Tell us about that, what you wanted to be when you were a child.
Jenifer: Yeah, I think when I was a child, I had a favourite book called Nancy Nurse, and my mother was actually a practicing nurse who specialised in OB-GYN and so I knew about that. She changed to become a medical writer and a freelancer after that, but I really wanted to help people. So before I moved to Japan, when my father was transferred here in the early eighties, I had actually applied and been accepted to go to the University of Michigan. So I was set up to have a very different life trajectory of working in a hospital and helping people to get healthy.
Catherine: Wow, that's quite different from being a lawyer, but at the same time, I feel that sort of helping people is certainly a golden thread that's running through your life. So did you turn down the University of Michigan? What happened?
Jenifer: I came with my parents to Japan and I entered Sophia University and I ended up spending my first two years of university there. The initial thought was that I would go for one year or even a trimester or go for a few months and check it out and go back to the US. I really wanted to try to learn the Japanese language and so that was part of the motivating factor. But I ended up entering Sophia University, meeting tons of diverse people and really enjoying what I was studying. So I just decided to turn down that opportunity to go to the University of Michigan and I refocused. After two years at Sofia University, I applied and transferred to Georgetown University in the United States and attended their School of Foreign Service.
Catherine: I'm wanting to just go back a little bit there because you talk about coming to Japan as if it was, just get on a flight and come, and it's certainly not like that now, but how did that come about? Was it a transfer through your family, from your dad, or your mom coming to Japan?
Jenifer: I grew up in and was raised in Midland, Michigan, and my father was asked to be the President of Dow Chemical, Japan. I was a senior in high school at the time so initially, he turned it down, but I had just come back from being in Europe with the Spanish Club. I was President of the Spanish Club in high school. He’s like, how would you like to move to Japan? So I thought that sounds really fun, so I ended up graduating early and I came with my parents and that's why I went to Sophia. So he took the job as President of Dow Japan, my mother came too and then established her career here as well. So they ended up staying for about eight years, but I came back and forth because, after university, I went back to the US to finish up in law school, then came back on a Fulbright Scholarship. By that time they had already gone back to the US, so my entrance was really, I guess, serendipitous in the sense that I hadn't thought about coming to Japan or Asia, it was really my father's career opportunity that brought me here.
Catherine: Do you remember when he asked you that question, what your thoughts were in your mind about Japan? Because you'd been on a Spanish track up until then, did it just seem like a great thing to do, or what was, do you remember your thoughts at that point?
Jenifer: It was my second time in Europe and I really discovered I loved traveling and exploring and meeting new people, so when my father mentioned it to me it sounded incredibly exotic and exciting. And they were hesitating just thinking, wow, wouldn't that be interesting. I didn’t know that much about Japan and Asia, frankly at the time, but I just remember feeling very excited about the opportunity.
Catherine: Who was a big influence on you in those days? Was it really your dad and what he was doing or was there someone else in Japan who influenced you to carry on with this Japan theme and your life?
Jenifer: That’s an excellent question. I think because when I came to Japan and I went to Sophia University to their international division, at the time it was a separate campus that they put you into so you could study in English and still kind of keep up. I wasn't studying in Japanese at the time, but I was taking intensive Japanese. I think that being there in the early eighties when it was so difficult to get around without speaking Japanese, Japan was such a different place. You know, once I got the grounding and a taste for living here, and expertise in the Japanese language, when I went to Georgetown, in order to graduate from the School of Foreign Service, you have to pass a fluency in a language. So I kept at my Japanese and what happened is I enjoyed living here and I thought about coming back or living abroad, but having that expertise in the Japanese language at a young age gave me a very unique skill set that I think also really played into the trajectory of my career. So I knew I wanted to work internationally, but then having that kind of Japan focus and in the eighties at a time when that was rare, I think opened a lot of doors that wouldn't have opened otherwise.
Catherine: Oh, okay, and did you keep your Spanish up, or did you just sort of decide that Japanese was probably more where you had your strength or your interest and that's why you went for the Japanese aspect for the Foreign Service School?
Jenifer: I think because I'd studied it for a few years in high school and when I went to Japan I started studying Japanese. Once I'd invested that much time I think I just decided that would be the language to pursue. There were a lot of people studying the romance languages but it just seemed like after studying it intensely for two years and being away from Spanish that I should go for the Japanese fluency.
Catherine: Right, I get you. And so you came back to the US, went to Georgetown in the Foreign Services School, and did you do law there as well, or was your attraction to the field of law after that?
Jenifer: I think probably because I went to Georgetown, I ended up going to law school. I applied to Georgetown Law School while I was at Georgetown as an undergraduate and got in. But, you know, Georgetown was a school with a lot of aspiring politicians that wanted to go into, obviously not just the foreign service, but local politics. So the law was viewed as a great profession for politicians. If you didn't get elected and it didn't work out, it was the best training of the mind to go to law school.
So both Sophia and Georgetown were Jesuit Universities. That I think really influenced me, so I guess in a way I was interested in the law, but it seemed like everybody was going to law school and the next logical choice that would also open doors and give me flexibility in what I wanted to do. And then also be useful if I wanted to work internationally.
Catherine: Oh okay. Were there any aspiring politicians who actually did become politicians in your years that you were there that you can think of right now?
Jenifer: I can't think of anyone that I knew closely, but Bill Clinton is a graduate of Georgetown, so he's probably one of our most famous alumni, but not my year.
Catherine: Okay. He's ahead of you of course. So after that, you obviously really mastered that approach to the study of law and you graduated, was that in 1988?
Jenifer: Yes, that was 1988 when I graduated.
Catherine: Did you join a law firm after that or what happened after you graduated, and how did you find your first role?
Jenifer: When I was in law school, they arranged career events where you could get interviewed. I was interviewed and I did have a job with a medium sized law firm, but I also became aware that you could apply for a Fulbright Scholarship. I was interested in doing a labor law project, looking at the impact of the newly adopted Japanese Equal Employment Opportunity Act on job opportunities for college women. Since they had been the most discriminated against in the job market with the least time to work before they quit to get married. So I really wanted to try for a Fulbright Scholarship and I was really thrilled to get that. So right after I graduated from law school, I went over to the University of Tokyo and did a research project for a year there under Professor Sugino. So I continued studying and then I went back and started working the following year.
Catherine: You had the job secured, but you got the Fulbright, so you came to Japan. Did you think at that time it's simply a year, it's not going to make a difference and it will be really enhancing my future? Also, it's something that you wanted to write a paper about.
Jenifer: You probably get this trend as I talk about my career, and it's interesting, it's only when you get opportunities like this, that you sometimes can look at your life more as a seamless journey than kind of a puzzle. I was so excited to go over and the law firm I was working for let me extend for a year, they were very supportive. I just figured this is a unique opportunity where I can study something I like, continue to improve on my Japanese that I think will be useful, meet new people and see what academia is like and see if that would take me on a different trajectory. So I think it was those elements.
Catherine: Right. And so what happened after that? You came back to the states, what was your next step?
Jenifer: So I came back to the states and I worked in private practice for 18 months and frankly really realised very early on that I did not aspire to be a partner. I did not find the law firm life to be something that would give me a work-life balance or what I thought would be fulfilling for me. So I started looking to get an in-house position and one of our clients at the time was the Industrial Bank of Japan now Mizuho. So at 18 months, I managed to leave private practice and get a job as the only in-house counsel at the Industrial Bank of Japan, New York branch and I stayed there for four years. So my first in-house experience was actually at a Japanese company in New York.
Catherine: Oh wow, I didn't know that. So as the only in-house legal counsel, did you also oversee parts of Japan, or was it centred on the New York operations?
Jenifer: Yeah, it was New York based. It was all about the investments they were doing in the US with Japanese companies. The arm that I mainly supported was doing leverage leasing, corporate loans, different types of trade financing, anything that would help Japanese companies grow in the US.
Catherine: Right. And you mentioned moving out of a law firm, not wanting to do the partner track. Do you remember that time when you decided that, did you talk to others about that or did you know within yourself that you wanted to stay in-house and that was where you wanted to take your trajectory for your career?
Jenifer: I think at the time I did reach out to different people in my life and around me. I was a young lawyer and I came from a family without any lawyers. I was the first lawyer in my family, so I didn't have any family related people that I could talk to, my parents and everyone were supportive of what I wanted to do. I remember trying to reach out to some law school friends, and other people to ask about what it would be like going in-house and meeting with some headhunters. For me, you know, we're all pretty adverse to change. I think I'm definitely a change junkie, I enjoy change even though it's kind of disruptive and it has its good and bad parts.
I would say that I wasn't enjoying the law firm life, I worked really long hours. This was before we had all the digital help we have now and I had Friday night FedEx deadlines. My partner was nice so I could go in on Saturday mornings but it seemed like I was working all the time, and so I just felt that wasn't what I wanted to do and the most logical step seemed to be in-house. So I think for me, when I'm not happy, that gives me the impetus to really reach out and move on. I think I just knew that this was not where I wanted to be in the next five to 10 years.
Catherine: Right. That's such an important thing that you bring up about listening to our inner spirit that tells us that something's not quite right, that we don't feel that. But knowing that inside ourselves, not what we feel we have to do or what others might think, but just delving deep down and knowing that that's not the path that we want to take. It's really important isn't it for especially young lawyers coming up, who may be thinking I've got to be a partner in a firm, that's the only way to go.
Jenifer: I think that even when I was in a law firm, I think that people felt that real lawyers are in law firms, and don't get me wrong, I have friends that are partners that are very happy, have fulfilling lives, and that love the law and are fantastic people.
Catherine: Me too.
Jenifer: Yeah, it's more about my choice in that it didn't feel to me that it was the best use of my skill set as well. I think it's not always easy to read your inner compass and to know what you want to do. I do think though that if you're really not happy where you are, what you're doing, I think that you need to have that level of motivation to make a change. Law firms pay pretty well, some of the work is very interesting, it's just about figuring out if that's going to be fulfilling for you or serve you or be a good use of your skillset, as you think about your longer-term career.
Catherine: Right, and is it that kind of thinking that helped you then to take another role? And I think your next role was in Japan.
Jenifer: I was fortunate that I went in-house so young and it was a really big job. So I had a lot of growth initially, but after four years, I didn't really see a lot more growth on the horizon. I got quite restless so I thought what would be interesting to do next? I wanted to live overseas again and I thought Japan would be fun to work in Tokyo. I kept using my Japanese skills obviously at work, and so again, I kind of reached out through friends in Japan. I got local headhunters in Japan involved, went over for a visit, did some interviewing, and ended up getting a job working for Merrill Lynch, now Bank of America, so I moved to Tokyo.
Catherine: Oh wow. I think we often hear about women not applying for roles because they don't tick all the boxes for a particular role. I think when we talked last, you mentioned that you didn't actually have all the ticks in the box, you had most of them, but I really love the story. I think it's quite inspiring for others to encourage them to go for an opportunity. Can you tell us a bit more about that?
Jenifer: When I first started at Merrill Lynch, I was a sales and trading derivatives lawyer. I also didn't know anything about derivatives and they told me, oh, I can learn it. So I started on the trading floor and, and I think what you're you're referring to is after a few years on the trading floor, when Yamaichi Securities went under, Merrill Lynch decided to develop a private wealth business in Japan and to hire people from Yamaichi, buy some of their technology and assets and create branches all over the country. So when they were looking for a general counsel, they needed three things. Somebody who knew Merrill Lynch, somebody who spoke Japanese, and somebody who had private wealth experience. And so I met two of those characteristics, even though I'd only been at Merrill Lynch for about three or four years. So I put up my hand and I remember negotiating too, I think they were worried I was so young. They wanted to make me kind of a co-chair or a co-general counsel, and I just didn't think that would work. So I did actually gain a lot of experience in asking for what you want when you're getting a new role and you know that they need you, and also trying to set yourself up for a structure where you think you can be successful.
Catherine: So they offered you a co-general counsel offer, but you said no to that and insisted on something else.
Jenifer: When I was the candidate of choice, they told me that they were looking for a general counsel, but then they were toying with the idea or suggested that maybe it would be like a co-general counsel because of my age and experience. I just said to them, I put up my hand for a general counsel role, that's what I aspire to, and I think that if you don't do that, I've seen a lot of co-chairs not work because it's like you take two different candidates and you think that together they're the ideal person. But they're two separate individuals and I think that's a hard thing to really manage well. So they agreed to that and made me general counsel.
Catherine: Well, what made you say, you know that? Because sometimes we might think, okay I'll take it as a co-general counsel role, that's great, it gets me started at least I'm part way there, I can work my way up to be the general counsel. Rather than do that you made a real line in the sand that you thought, no, this is it, I put my hand up for this, this is what I want. Were you really just putting your cards on the table, and then it was for them to make a decision, actually we do need this person, she's the one we want. Is that kind of how you approached it? Do you remember that time when you were negotiating?
Jenifer: I think that I can remember it in some ways. I believe that I was a bit torn because it's difficult to ask and I was young, but I think also my idealism being young was that I really believe you should have one general counsel and that the reason I was willing to take the role is that it would be a challenge, and I thought I could do a good job. So I think it was a combination of idealism, some naivete, and also it was a big role and that they weren't sure about how to make it work the best. It was a bit of a chaotic environment and so I think considering that and that the company was not sure what the best approach was I could be more persuasive.
Catherine: What was the job like in the end? Was it quite hard or easy or would you do it the same way that you approached it this time?
Jenifer: I think it was a really critical developmental role for me, it was very hard to give a speech in Japanese in front of 2000 employees using teleprompters, that was a first. I hired a 20 person team, all ex Yamaichi Securities people who had never even spoken to a foreign female, less worked for one. So I had many senior Japanese men working for me that had never worked at a foreign company. We set up a compliance program, at that time compliance wasn't really part of the vocabulary for securities companies, they just sold products that the head office wanted to individual investors throughout Japan. There were a lot of challenges, and I think for me, I was a young manager, I had a crisis early on that taught me a lot about really connecting with people on a human element and leadership style.
I had a senior person who was a compliance and surveillance person who did our insider trading checks etc., two months into the program when we had four months to launch and get everything up and running he told my assistant that he was going to resign or quit. So I went down and sat down with him and told him that we really wanted him to stay, he was a valuable member of the team, we needed him for the project, and is there any way I could work with him to see if he would be willing to stay? While I had assumed he may not like working for a foreign female or at a foreign company, what he told me is that he was the oldest son in his family, they lived in Shikoku and his father had just passed away and he needed to take two to three weeks off to go home and take care of all of his personal responsibilities. He just assumed that a foreign company and a foreign boss would not appreciate or understand that and that we couldn't do the project if that was the timeline.
He was coming from a totally different perspective on an issue in his private life, and I was making assumptions of my own. The great outcome of the story is I convinced him to stay, he went home and took care of what he needed to do, and came back very refreshed. We figured out an interim way to get some other people to work on things in his absence. So it just taught me that you can't make assumptions as a manager and a leader. You really have to get to know your people and understand them holistically so that you can really support them in coming to work and being the best person they can be.
Catherine: So true, isn't it, it's just challenging these assumptions or what we think people are thinking. We don't know until we actually have those conversations that can really clear up so many things. I think that's a really great story for people to hear about. We also make assumptions about ourselves, right? That he's thinking I'm not a good manager, I'm young and I'm a female in a foreign company and all of these things are going on in your head. Actually just having that conversation with him, sitting down with him, made just a hundred percent difference. Didn’t it?
Jenifer: Absolutely. I think it really showed me that you can't underestimate the power of communication and meaningful communication.
Catherine: Meaningful. Right. And so you stayed with Merrill Lynch for a while, but you went off to other places, Dublin and London, how did that come about? Was it a natural progression within your company? You talked about it before, right? Change junkie. Was it that need to go somewhere else, but stay within the company?
Jenifer: Yes I remember when I'd been the general counsel in Japan for four years or so, I remember talking to my boss about what do you think is next for you, how are you doing here? I'm like, I'm ready to leave, and he's like, yeah but when were you going to tell me that, I'm telling you now. But each time that I think I've made a career progression, it's usually because I've been looking for the next opportunity. I seem to have a four to six year window before I kind of get antsy and want a new opportunity and experience.
So that was one where I talked to the guy that was running the business, and then to my boss and said I'd like to go outside Japan if possible, to expand my horizons and an opportunity came up in London. I moved to London next, and then when I left London, I spent a lot of time covering our banks in Europe, but I took a sabbatical. I left Merrill Lynch for a year, went back, and got my master's in International Public Policy at John Hopkins, and while I was doing that I was a legal consultant for the World Bank. Then I was lucky that I kept in touch with Merrill Lynch and I ended up going back and being their general counsel for private wealth in Asia.
So most of the changes and the opportunities I had, including when I was in Hong Kong, they needed an interim general counsel for the Australian business, so I commuted to Sydney and spent time there, and then they needed one in Mumbai at a separate time and I was asked, would I do both, and I ended up spending about a year there on and off. So I think a lot of it has been people asking me to do things, but really more my putting up my hand, I enjoy learning new things, taking new risks because I enjoy opportunities to grow and meet new people, and also experience different jurisdictions because the law can be applied in different ways. You could have a civil code versus a common law country, I think all of those differences are very interesting.
Catherine: Right because someone like me, I've been in-house in private practice and spent seven years, one year, four years, five years, but it's been changing companies and changing roles within companies or in law firms. But you've spent that solid chunk of your career at one company, but it sounds like with those transfers that you had maybe six in total, you worked across different disciplines and countries and environments and cultures. So it felt like in a way, am I thinking right here that it, it felt like you were in different companies or you had that variety that one might get, if they'd changed companies, you did that within your company.
Jenifer: Absolutely. I remember when I was interviewing for Merrill Lynch they did tell me that they could give me some diversity of opportunity because it is a large company. At the time I was in financial services, there were new opportunities because it was a growth area, you were expanding and it was a very good time from that perspective. But yes, I believe I stayed for 18 years at Merrill Lynch because I could stay within one company and experience different areas within financial services, different disciplines, different regions, and so that really kept me motivated to stay.
Catherine: A mutual friend of ours in Tokyo has called you a career hippie as well. So what does that mean to you? Do you recommend lawyers, young lawyers plan their career or part of their careers, or be more opportunistic these days?
Jenifer: An excellent point. I do recommend that people lookout for opportunities, especially if you're somebody who is excited by new growth opportunities and you're looking for a change. There's a lot of lawyers I think that find a specialty they love and you can excel and develop amazing expertise in one area, but I certainly found that putting my hand up and letting people know I was open to opportunities really propelled me in my career because if you never ask people don't think of you.
I think that one of the mistakes that people make and some of the worst advice I got was, just work hard and keep your head down. I think working hard, especially when you're early in your career is definitely required, but I think you need to work smarter and be your own advocate and make sure you are telling people what you like to do, and also making them aware that you're looking for opportunities. So I do think that I haven't had a set career plan as much as I've just known when I've had an opportunity and I think that I've learned what I can, and I feel motivated to do something different, then I've looked within either internally or externally for different opportunities.
I think the one exception was for Bank of America Merrill Lynch. When I left, I was actually headhunted, but I had been looking at and talking to different people and headhunters about leaving financial services after the financial crisis and the Lehman shock. It was a very different world to be an in-house lawyer in a financial institution and having been bought by a commercial bank, besides which Bank of America was a very different culture. That took me a few years. You get golden handcuffs when you're with a company for a long time, it's quite an economic decision. So I was fortunate that I found a company where it wasn't a competitor that I could move to keep some stock options, take career retirement, and still continue to grow and evolve. So it's not always immediate, some paths take time, but I think you should always continue to look for those opportunities and to be aware of what excites you and what motivates you.
As I said, I like change, I find it interesting, but it's disruptive and your learning curve is high at the beginning. So I think you have to enjoy that, but I think that you really do have to become an advocate for your career. Obviously, you can develop mentorships and no one's career is done on their own, you need support from lots of different people in relationships who will support you. But I think you really have to be very aware of what excites you in your career and that you need to be part of the process of your own development.
Catherine: That’s extremely useful information and I almost need to break down all of that into several pieces, but I want to move on because obviously, you left that high profile and long standing role where you were and you moved off to Asurion where you are now. So what attracted you to say yes to that in this current position that you're in now, and tell us a bit about Asurion the number of employees you've got there, and how your team's organised?
Jenifer: I decided to go to Asurion for a variety of reasons. It was a privately held company, it was in an area where I did some electronic related insurance, but it was in the tech services area, so it was something quite novel and different. So that was one element. It was also a very growth mindset company with a lot of dynamic people and I liked the people that I met. We have about 20,000 employees worldwide now. So it's been around now for about 20 years, but when I joined, it was still not that old. The dynamic aspect being privately held, I was interested to see what it would be like being a lawyer where we didn't have Sarbanes Oxley, and some of all the compliance-related stuff, would it be more entrepreneurial?
I was looking for that type of change and I was also excited about covering, not just Japan, but APAC, the APAC team has 11 lawyers now reporting to me based in five countries where we're the most active. What I like about it is, we have developed and developing countries, we have more mature markets and less mature markets. I have a great team and so every day you have quite a different experience. I report to a general counsel in the US so I have a lot of connectivity still with the head office and with the team there and I enjoy that interaction as well.
Catherine: So when you are hiring people into your team, what kinds of skills or attributes are you looking for for an in-house counsel or staff member?
Jenifer: You know, as we look to how law is changing and what type of person I'm looking for, I mean, we do have five people in Singapore, but otherwise we have one or maybe two lawyers in different locations. So for countries where we have one lawyer, you're looking for somebody senior enough that they can be almost the general counsel on the job and handle a variety of tasks and be a strategic partner with the business, do a lot of the value add. For where we have maybe a larger office or more specialties, you're still looking for that, but you can be a bit more bespoke and sign them to a specific country or a specific team. But the reason that you go in-house as opposed to staying in a law firm is you really are interested in knowing about the business and applying the law directly to the business and having the accountability for that. You become a risk manager looking at how to mitigate the risk within the company. So you need people that really want to deal with a variety of stakeholders at every level, many different business people, it could cut across the supply chain, product, etc., so they need to have some emotional intelligence and are curious about the business. Solution providers are the type of people I look to for my team.
Catherine: Wow, it’s amazing, and as well as the full time role as general counsel, you've also got this array of board roles and I'd love to talk about those, working as an external director for three Japanese companies. How are all of those companies different? Is your role different in each of those, or are you applying the same approach to each of those companies as you support them on the board?
Jenifer: So each of the three companies has a different governance system, under the Japanese system, so that's been interesting. One is the Three Committee system, one’s an Audit Committee system and one's the Kansayaku Statutory Auditor system. So they're all quite unique and they're all different industries. I think what is the same is obviously I'm usually the choice as a diverse candidate, so I feel that I need to bring a fresh perspective on opinion from that perspective. I want to be a change agent in a positive way. So I think for each company, getting to know them, establishing relationships with all the management, the other external directors, and figuring out how to learn about the company quickly, so you can provide helpful and important feedback to impact change is really what I focus on. That skillset is the same in some ways, but you need to be adaptive in each environment as to how you can have an impact and how you need to actually realise that.
Catherine: And we know from recent announcements that lawyers and female lawyers and foreigners are being sought after in Japan to become external directors. Why is this, why do you think that lawyers or female lawyers, foreign female lawyers are being brought to the boardroom, and what makes our presence there really beneficial to those board members and also for the stakeholders?
Jenifer: The one thing is, especially within Japan, I think there's a lot of really talented qualified female lawyers out there. So I think if you look at the pool of candidates, because of the way that Japanese women have been promoted in Japan, there's a thinner pipeline of people that are ready to take on the top jobs. But I think that lawyers are used to complexity, risk management, and many have been around governance. I think that the legal training also brings a level of acuity and also the ability to absorb information quickly and apply a solution. So I think female lawyers are popular because of the legal training, probably availability comparatively when you think about women in the profession, even within Japan, while the numbers have been small, you still have quite a few female lawyers of a similar age to me. So I think that might be a component of it. Availability sounds a little strange because there are still not enough women on boards and I think that finding qualified women that have worked their whole career in Japan is still a challenge. But I think that skill set is helpful if you talk about a diverse candidate and wanting somebody to actually have a viewpoint, lawyers are provided to give advice so we need to be confident in giving that advice and I think that would attract a company. Obviously being a foreigner and a female, you're a twofer in the sense that you provide the most diversity, I think that's attractive. If companies are serious about changing you not only have your legal skills that you can apply, but as a foreigner, you obviously have a unique perspective. I have a global perspective, obviously, I'm American, so I bring a very different viewpoint. So I think those elements make foreigners and females quite attractive.
Catherine: Great, and often what might put a person off those, they have to handle the request or the approval inside of their firm or their company. I think it would be really helpful for others to learn from you, how you approached getting that internal approval to be on the boards. And perhaps, you know, how you would recommend more generally that people go about looking for a position as an external board member.
Jenifer: It’s an excellent question. My current company is privately held, so I can go to the boss and then top management fairly quickly with the request to be an external director. So I think that you can't compare. A lot of public companies and law firms do not allow for lawyers to be on a board because they believe it's a conflict of interest. There are limitations on lawyers becoming board members. I think I'm very fortunate that I have a company that’s supportive of that and I have an approval process that's quite individual. That’s quite a big difference from people that are at larger corporations. So maybe if you're at a smaller corporation, it would be much easier for that approval to be given, but it does vary by each company and by each law firm.
As far as how to go about getting a board position. I was fortunate because it was through a colleague I had at Merrill Lynch that I was recommended for my first board Mitsui & Company and I went through the interview process there. For my other boards, the second was through a headhunter, also somebody I knew through the Georgetown connection asked me and thought my resume would be appropriate. My third with Nissan was I had met a headhunter at an event, at the Women Corporate Directors meeting, their Asia summit. For me what I realised as I've gotten older is that networking can be a tricky term. A lot of people feel it means that you go out just for the purpose of passing out business cards. But for me, networking is really the lifelong building of relationships with people you meet and mutually respect. Your professional network becomes, I think later in life, your ticket to get other opportunities within your own profession and it can also lead to things like a board position. So I can't really encourage people enough to really make time and not necessarily to network, but to make friends and meet with and establish relationships with people they admire in their profession, or just generally for their skill set and get to know them.
Catherine: Yeah, I think you've given the perfect definition of networking, that it is a lifelong building up of relationships. I think that's so succinct and completely how it’s been in my area as well, those relationships have been just the key to everything. I think that's also helped you in these other nonprofit board roles that you've got, you were elected as President of the American Chamber of Commerce in Japan, in January, congratulations again. After serving as a governor there in 2018 and since then as vice president from last year in 2020, and I think that also was in a manner of you building up relationships, but how did the opportunity actually arise to be president there? Were you destined to do that or did someone tap you on the shoulder or was it really that formation of relationships that led you to that role?
Jenifer: Well, thank you for that. I think it was also relationships that got me even to join the ACCJ. My company hadn't been a member and I was encouraged to become an individual member when I came back to Japan. I had been gone for 14 years when I came back at the end of 2014 with Asurion, so I just did it as a way to get to know the professional community and the issues here. Then I had a mutual friend of ours and other women that encouraged me to get my company to become a corporate member, so I could run for governor. That's how it really evolved, that networking encouraged me. I had women encouraging me to make it so I could be nominated for a position. I was a bit surprised to be nominated for president, It wasn't something I necessarily sought out. I do feel though that, because I was active obviously first as a governor and then as a vice-president, I became visible to people, and maybe my participation in meetings, I tend to speak up, had had a role in that. So I think it was one of those areas where I really like the people within the ACCJ I believe in the organisation, and its mission to really create a robust environment for foreign companies operating in Japan. More generally, when I was asked to do it, I thought this is the way I think that I could contribute to the business community and give back. I also felt at the same time that it would be a unique opportunity for me to challenge myself.
I think being a lawyer and even on boards I'm not a CEO and when you're president of an organisation you really are kind of calling the shots, so it's more like a not-for-profit CEO role. What appealed to me and excited me about the ACCJ president opportunity was I felt very fortunate to be asked to run, and then I just thought it would be kind of a great win-win for me personally and professionally to develop as well as to give back to the business community.
Catherine: That's amazing. Just a few months before that in November of last year, you took on a board of councilors role at the Okinawa Institute of Science and Technology, which is, shall I say, a little bit more random than the other roles. I mean, it's clear that you have an interest in doing things beyond your work and beyond even the ACCJ that came up after that, but what's drawing you to all of these external positions?
And what was it in particular about that Okinawa Institute of Science and Technology that drew you in to be part of that organisation?
Jenifer: So I have always been interested in not-for-profit organisations, just because I think it's a great way to pursue your passion or to meet people from a diverse background and to do something outside of your immediate work. I am very passionate about international education, as you mentioned, I'm Treasurer for Fulbright Japan, and I'm also on the US-Japan Council. I believe in education, especially international education, and knowing other cultures as a way to improve things from a soft diplomacy perspective. It's those human to human experiences and connections that make us more open to different ideas and to exchange.
The Okinawa Institute of Science and Technology opportunity came to me through the Asia Society, Japan chapter. I took a trip with them and we were doing some consulting for them on their situation. I met a group of interesting people and they have a very unique international education program here that I think is good for Japan so that's what intrigued me. It was also through a network I was encouraged to join and the board of councilors is not as much of a time commitment as some of my others. Whenever I take on something new, I have to weigh my ability to also execute. I try to look for opportunities where I can add value, but also I'm aware of what level of commitment is required. It's a very unique experiment of creating an English-based graduate program in advanced sciences and then taking that to the incubation stage. I just think that was what really interested me, it still has the same educational theme and is an area that I’m not so involved in the sciences from my background, so learning about what's happening, they do quantum physics, they do a lot of really interesting stuff, it was also a way to delve into a new area.
Catherine: I look forward to hearing what that program brings in the next, I would say year or two years or further than that sounds really very, very interesting and quite different for Japan. How interesting to be involved in that. I want to switch gears a little bit, Jenifer, to your routine. I love hearing about what other lawyers do and have at the bookends of the day, and I know you mentioned at the top of the show about your dedication to meditation. So tell us about your day? How do you start your day? How do you manage your day and how does it end up at the end of the day? How do you wind down?
Jenifer: My days are not super routine. I think what happens is my morning tends to be the most routine part of it because that changes less day by day. So as you mentioned, and really since the pandemic, the first thing I do when I get up in the morning is I meditate for at least 20 minutes. That's followed by exercise either can be swimming, yoga, meeting with my personal trainer, which I do a few times a week, so I try to make sure I get in exercise in the morning before my schedule precludes that. Then throughout the day, I tend to have a lot of meetings, virtual meetings, also sometimes for my board meetings, a mix of face-to-face in this current environment, considering the safety issue. But what I also like to do is I love coffee and I don't like to make espresso at home because I can never get the milk right. I try to build in an excuse to move and walk outside, so I have a few coffee places near me within, I would say 15-minute range and I'd try to go out in the morning and in the early afternoon and get a coffee and just not look at my computer, move my body, look at the world around me. I find that to be really helpful as a mental break and a nice reset to clear my head and come back so I can focus more fully. The end of the day really varies, pre-pandemic I had a lot of events I would attend for ACCJ or otherwise would meet friends and business acquaintances for dinner and that's less now. So usually after dinner, I'll try to read a book. I love to watch a Japanese drama from time to time. If I've been very busy during the day and I have things to do for my extracurricular philanthropy interests, I sometimes do log in at night and get caught up on those types of things. I really do try when I end my day to have some interaction with somebody outside of work, or I listen to maybe say an Asia Society Japan lecture event, something like that’s kind of different and something you can look forward to.
Catherine: Yeah it’s great, you've got such a variety, and I love that you're also watching some of the Japanese dramas. I think not only the language aspect, because some of them, if it's the modern dramas do bring out some modern Japanese language and it's good to keep up to date with those, also I think it shows a lot about the changing culture of Japan. I do love popping in and watching some of those dramas myself and just seeing what people are thinking about or what at least television programs think we should be thinking about for some of the ideas they come out with. But thinking of themes Jenifer, what about a theme that guides you, or do you have something like that every year that you concentrate on? I know we're halfway through the year already, but do you have a word or a theme that you choose each year to guide you?
Jenifer: I don’t have a word or a theme. If I did, probably this year it would be resilience when I think of some of these themes we set for the chamber. Going into this year is about surviving and thriving and sort of navigating as we hopefully come out of the pandemic. I'm more of a goal on a daily or monthly basis, more than a theme year type person.
Catherine: Ah, I see. Okay, so what about another question here? If you could swap jobs with someone else for a day or week, who would you want to swap jobs with and why?
Jenifer: I always thought it would be cool to be a journalist or a war correspondent or correspondent that goes to all these different hotspots and has to think on their feet and navigate. That might be something that would be interesting to try for a day or a week as a new challenge.
Catherine: And what's something new that you've learned in this last week? Can you think of anything that you've learned?
Jenifer: Constantly, I'm studying Chinese, so I'm learning new words in Chinese each week. I take a class once a week. I'm trying to think if there's anything bigger than that off the top of my head.
Catherine: I think that’s pretty big. Well done, gosh that's amazing. You are just so, so very busy. I would love to move then just to think about law firms of the future and lawyers of the future and legal counsel of the future. What do you think our profession should be focusing on as we go forward? And this is really good advice I think for young lawyers and law students who are coming up the ranks.
Jenifer: The world is becoming so digital-oriented and so technology-based, I always say that I don't think any of us are going to continue to work in a bank or say in a car company. It's always going to be you're a technology company, specialising in finance or specialising in making cars or something like that. So I think the legal profession too, at Georgetown Law Center where I'm involved, they have coding for lawyers and they do teach a lot of technology. I think you're going to have to be able to use the tools of efficiency and we've got the data mining for discovery, for due diligence, et cetera. I think you're going to have more tools that take the routine work away from lawyers.
So you're going to have to be training to be more of a strategic partner. Somebody who can really add a lot of value to providing creative solutions when you apply the law. I think that you're going to need very emotionally intelligent lawyers who have a versatile skill set. I think that the law was always referred to as a master’s in liberal arts, but I think that the lawyers are going to have to be more nimble, tech-savvy, and very conscious of the value proposition they're offering to their clients. Making sure that's a partnership, and meaningful in a way that could not be replaced by any kind of technological development.
Catherine: That sounds extremely interesting, and I think you're right, we're going to be different kinds of lawyers. We're not going to be doing all of those mundane things and I think that's a big, big change. What else can we do with our energy, our knowledge, and our experience in creating those creative solutions and being a strategic partner? I think you've hit the nail on the head there. For you yourself, just peeking around the corner, any goals or plans or aspirations, either personal or career that you're thinking about right now?
Jenifer: Well because I'm a career hippie, I've always got my antenna out for opportunities. I'm currently really still enjoying my role at Asurion. I think with the board positions I have now, and then the new challenge with the ACCJ presidency, I haven't been yearning in my change junky kind of way for anything new in the short term, but I'll continue to keep my ears and eyes open. I do enjoy serving on corporate boards because it gives you such a unique opportunity to go in-depth into a new industry and area, and then try to impact the trajectory of the business. I'd still like to continue to do that and pursue some of my outside interests. I guess more to come I'll just have to see where the path goes.
Catherine: Okay, I’ll be watching you. Is there anything today, Jenifer, that we've covered that you'd like to mention again or anything we haven't covered that you'd like to speak about?
Jenifer: No, I don't really think so, I guess I just really encourage people that are starting in their law career, as I said to think about being a risk-taker and that can mean a lot of different things or be conscious about their career and their career choices. Even if they're staying in their current position, just analysing, is that what they really like to do? Is it using their skillset and developing it? I think we all talk about it and it's so easy to live life on automatic pilot, especially if you get in a job that is hectic and can be interesting in some ways, but I think you really do need to step back and take a little bit of responsibility for managing your career.
I do mentor people and I've had great mentees in my life within Merrill Lynch and other places that have really taken me under their wing and supported me. So thinking about what you want to do, and maybe talking to people that are doing things that you would like to do or careers that you would like to have is a great way to start to educate yourself on if you could be in a position to do that. So I guess that would be my final sort of advice.
Catherine: Fabulous. Well, I'm going to hit the final super six, which is the quick fire round of six questions I ask every guest to wind up the interview. So the first question is obviously, presuming that this is all compliant. If I gave you 1 million yen in cash in Japan, where would you spend that, your favourite store or destination or anything?
Jenifer: So I'd have to say I would actually contribute or gift it to one of the charities I sit on, probably the US-Japan Council or Fulbright Japan. But if I had that kind of money, I would love to give it to a worthy cause that I'm passionate about.
Catherine: I knew you were going to say, I am so glad, I can see that that's where your passion would come from to help the organizations you're with. You mentioned podcasts before and dramas and also about books, right? Can you share a book that you've read recently or are reading or podcasts that you've listened to or are listening to that you recommend?
Jenifer: I really like podcasts and got into them during the pandemic. The one that I really liked is called Feel Better, Live More by Rangan Chatterjee, who is a doctor in the UK and it’s a nice combination of things about physical health, but also spiritual mental health. I think he does a nice job and has a good variety of guests and is a very good conversationalist speaker in getting his guests to be vulnerable, so that would be my podcast. And I'm reading a classic book that's not so recent called Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman for a book club I'm in. That's interesting because it talks about decision-making and some of the pitfalls you can run into with your own biases, et cetera, and how to be aware of that to make better decisions. So I'm finding that quite interesting.
Catherine: We’ve just found out you're also in a book club, I'm wondering when you actually get to sleep. But in terms of sleeping, you're stuck on a desert island, glorious, and you need to take one person, one item, and one food with you. Who and what are they?
Jenifer: That’s such a hard question? So I'm on a desert island. I need a spiritual leader, so I thought about the Dalai Lama, but I don't know if he speaks English.
Catherine: He does, and on this desert island, anybody does anything, so yes he does. Okay, and are you taking champagne or some other food for sustenance?
Jenifer: Um, I didn't think it was a beverage, so the food was going to be dark chocolate, you could melt that. It's got antioxidants in it, it's yummy either as it is, or you could melt it and put it on coconut or whatever. And then the item, I wanted to bring my Kindle so I could read many books. I couldn't decide on one book and I guess we wouldn't have electronics on the island. That's correct, right?
Catherine: Oh I think it's a magical island, so it has those things.
Jenifer: Okay, so then I would take a Kindle so I can have access to any book I wanted to read so I don't think I'd ever get bored.
Catherine: Perfect, is there a famous person or celebrity you would love to meet or have?
Jenifer: Well I like very strong women in leadership positions who also are a symbol for female empowerment, so I thought of Kamala Harris as the first female Vice President of the US who has also inspired so much hope with her diversity to so many women globally. I thought she'd be interesting, a fellow lawyer and somebody who has reached a high position within government.
Catherine: Yeah I’d love to meet her too. Please take me with you when you meet her, hopefully, she'll visit Japan at some point as well. So what's on your bedside cabinet?
Jenifer: Uh, it's not very exciting, it's really a lamp, it'll be water, I have a book and then my smartphone for an alarm and a scented candle.
Catherine: Okay, that's a great array of things to have there. So a bonus question to ask you, Jenifer, something about you that others don't know, you've already been revealing a lot about things that you're involved in, but is this something perhaps people listening don't know about you and might be interested to hear?
Jenifer: I think one of the things is I did a lot of sports growing up, but I had the opportunity in college to be on a men's sports team. I was a coxswain for a men's crew team, a heavyweight crew team, and it was really a fascinating experience because it taught me a lot about how different techniques can be used to motivate men and women. Since I had had a different experience, being a female in doing lots of sports, gymnastics, tennis, swimming, et cetera. So I thought that was one thing people didn't know about me, and I think that also was a very educational experience for me.
Catherine: Wow. Yes, and I think you'll be looking forward then to the Olympics, with the rowing and other sports that you would be interested in, right?
Jenifer: Absolutely. I've got two tickets, I’ve got one to a crew event and one to a diving event. I decided to try to see the sports that I did growing up, so I'm excited about that.
Catherine: Great, well I'll be cheering on the New Zealand team of course, during the rowing. But I may find that you're probably going to be cheering on the US team, of course, team USA.
Jenifer: Of course, that's where your nationality comes out, but I'm not sure the US team is going to be the most strong, but I will cheer them on.
Catherine: Great. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story Jenifer, telling us about your marvelous career and many of the various board roles you've got, those other interesting activities you're involved in and for sharing those absolute nuggets of advice, it was so great to connect with you this way. Thank you so much.
Jenifer: Thank you too, Catherine, it's been a pleasure.
Catherine: So how can people connect with you after this?
Jenifer: Sure, I'm on LinkedIn, I think that would be the preferred way. If people want to reach out to me there, I think that's the best way to get in touch with me.
Catherine: Okay that’s fantastic. I'll put that into the show notes and then someone who's interested in connecting with you and learning a bit more can reach out to you.
Jenifer: That would be fine.
Catherine: Great, well I'd like to finish it there. We've had a fantastic conversation about your impressive career, and you're truly modeling for lawyers at all stages of the career. How to be a leader, a general counsel, and how to contribute to corporate governance as a lawyer, by taking on these board roles. You've shown you've had opportunities presented, you've selectively decided which ones to take, and you constantly have your radar tuned for anything that comes across your path that delights you. For you, the door to opportunity is always marked Push, and you certainly have pushed that door. I'm so grateful to you for coming along and being my ninth guest in this first season of Lawyer On Air, out there on the airwaves with a total of 10 lawyers. One more to go. So thank you for sharing your journey, it's inspiring for me and I hope it has been for our listeners. And for my listeners do indeed LIKE this episode, subscribe to Lawyer On Air and drop us a short review because that always helps Lawyer On Air become seen and heard by many people. You can also go onto my webpage now, find this episode and leave me a voicemail. I love hearing people's actual voices telling me about the guest and what they enjoyed. So go ahead, share the episode with someone you think will enjoy listening to it and be inspired to live a wonderful lawyer lady life. Thanks again, Jenifer.
Jenifer: Have a great day.
Catherine: Thank you again for listening to this episode. Cheers, kampai, and bye for now.
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